You Have an Advocate for Heaven! with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ

Adam Wright:

You have heard Father Mitch Pacwa on our airwaves many times before, especially on Wednesday afternoons with open line Wednesday, among other great shows here on Covenant Network that we’re so happy to get from our friends at EWTN. Father, it’s good to be with you here in Saint Louis.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Thank you very much. Nice to be here.

Adam Wright:

So in your talk today at the Saint Louis Marion Conference, you were talking about the trial system that awaits all of us: that the Father is the judge, and we have an advocate. In fact, we we have two. I I never thought about that that there are two paracletes. Well, I always think of the Holy Spirit, but you said no. Jesus said, “I’ll send you another paraclete,” implying there’s a first one, that’s Him. And you said that the devil’s trying to convict us of our sin, and that our defense attorney, our Lord on the cross said, “Father forgive them. They know not what they do.”

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

And I want to add one thing, too. It’s in the first letter of Saint John, chapter two verse one, where Saint John says we have a paraclete with the Father. Now usually it’ll say advocate, but the Greek is [inaudible]. We have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ. So it’s explicit. It’s not just implicit in John 14:16, where it says I will send you another advocate. But it is explicit that Jesus is the paraclete. So that’s very important.

Adam Wright:

Yeah. We’re not reading between the lines. We are reading the lines in that instance. So I want to ask you about that because I feel so often, when we think of perfect contrition, imperfect contrition, maybe in our formation, especially growing up, we don’t have that sense of what we are actually doing. How our sin not only wounds us, but how it grieves the Father. And I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what our Lord says there when he says, “Forgive them. They know not what they do.”

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Yeah. One of the things about sin grieving God that’s very important is that he created humanity to be in his image and likeness. You have kids?

Adam Wright:

I do. Yeah. 5 of them.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Do you like them?

Adam Wright:

I do.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Oh, see. That’s good. And so not everybody does. I don’t take it for granted anymore. But one of the things about having children is that you want them to be themselves, but at the same time, you want them to reflect on your family. You know, that they, when they’re with other people, speak politely, say “please and thank you” every time somebody gives you something when you go to a family get together. You want them to demonstrate that you have been training them and you don’t want them to act like little savages. I assume.
And this is the way God the Father is. If your child were to go up to his or her grandparent and just say, “well, give me that candy!” you would be appalled. And they would be rubbing their backside, because your palm would have an effect on them. And, you know, because you don’t want them to act like narcissistic sociopathic maniacs, unless you intend for them to go into politics. But, you know, the Father in heaven wants us to reflect Him the same way that you want your children to reflect you. And it would be painful if they were disrespectful to their grandparents, or mean to them in any way. The same thing is true with the way God the Father wants us to act.

Adam Wright:

Sometimes I think of the vices we struggle with in habitual sin. And that’s what I think, that if I really had just even a slight semblance of how much this affects my relationship with the Father. If I actually knew, then it would be a lot easier to say, “Alright, I am going to work hard and to ask for the grace I need, because – lived experience – I cannot do it on my own,” to break free of this vice or to at least go and apologize with that contrite heart every time I do fall into that sin.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

I think that’s an important element. I think it’s important. I wrote a book, Winning The Battle Against Sin, some years ago. And I always like going back to the first temptation of Adam and Eve. And the first thing is how Satan said, “Did God really say not to eat of any of the fruit?” [Eve] said, “Oh, we can eat everything except that one tree.” And he said, “Oh, God doesn’t-” He first of all, goes after God’s motives. “He doesn’t want you to have access. He doesn’t want you to be that smart. That’s why He did that.” Attacking God’s motives. And another part of it is he says “You won’t really die.” The evil one likes to deny the punishment, the consequences.
Again, a good sign of that is what we see going on in our culture today. Look at all the number of district attorneys around the country. They have been financed by extremely wealthy people to go into areas, and they make it clear there’s no punishment for your sin. So what’s happening in so many big cities: stores are closing. You can’t even buy a tube of toothpaste without someone having to unlock a case because there’s so much theft. Denying the punishment is part of Satan’s temptation. And then giving an appealing quality: it looks good to eat and it’s beautiful to the eyes. All of these aspects of what’s sometimes called the beautiful side of evil, and questioning God’s motives, questioning that there there’s not going to be a punishment of the new consequences. All of that goes into temptation on a regular basis.
So when we are fighting against temptation, we have to be alert to the way in our culture – a good example would be how again, our politicians are saying, “Oh, we don’t want to put people in jail for a little bit of marijuana, so we’re gonna legalize it.” And, “It’s not bad. It’s not like-” you know. They banned cigarette smoking. They try to stop that. But they’re encouraging smoking of marijuana. You know, that’s very odd, but it’s, “There’s no consequences. It’s okay. And we just don’t wanna have consequences of going to jail for committing a crime. It’s not a big deal.” And these are the same kind of temptations, and we have to pay attention to whatever sinful behavior we have. That those same factors: denying the punishment, questioning God’s motives or the church’s motives, and trying to see the beautiful, attractive side of the evil. All of that is going on. And we have to react by trying to fight against all of those aspects.
There is a consequence to sinful behavior. It’s not just that I’d be embarrassed. It could be much worse. You know, the consequences of sin have major impacts beyond my act. Think about something like an abortion. It’s not just that that child is dead, but all the generations that could have come from that child cannot exist. It’s changed history. That’s what Mother Teresa used to say: “You Americans have aborted the doctor who had the cure for cancer.” And, you know, so there are consequences. We have to remember that. And while it looks like a good thing: “Well, this would be better for my career if I had this abortion. This would be better for my- I mean I’m not ready to be burdened with a child or, I’d couldn’t handle a boy. I want a girl.” Whatever looks good, we have to say no. I take whom God gives me, and I take His limitations. We have to say, “No. I’m going to trust in God, that when He says that something is wrong, that it probably is harmful for me.” You know, drinking too much, using drugs. I mean, we see the devastation of the drugs on the streets of these big cities where they don’t punish it. Sex, you know, that becomes something that is so addictive and people give so many to you, like, “I gotta be me, I gotta express myself.” No you don’t. You know, you’re not gonna blow up. You’re not a steam engine. You don’t explode. That doesn’t happen. Don’t believe that.
And our consequences we see in our country. Now the majority of children are born to unmarried parents. 52% of all kids born are born to unmarried parents. Typically, the dads don’t show up. The the fathers aren’t there. Right? Sometimes the mothers aren’t there, because they’re “being themselves”. And the consequence is poverty for the children. And greater likelihood of criminal behavior: 85% of inmates in prison are the children of unmarried parents. Across all racial lines it’s 85% of the white guys, the black guys, the brown guys. Doesn’t matter. So we have to pay attention, and God wants us to avoid these sins, because He knows we’re playing with matches that’ll burn us.

Adam Wright:

Yeah. I don’t tell my children, “No you can’t stick your hand on the pot of boiling water that we’re using to cook the macaroni and cheese,” because I’m a hateful parent who doesn’t want my kid to touch the bright red pot. I don’t want them to get a severe burn on their hand.
You said something in your talk today. Something else I’ve been reflecting on for years. And that is that before we sin- And I was actually just watching a great talk from venerable Servant of God, Fulton Sheen, the other day, talking about before we sin and after we sin, that our Lord seems like the one who’s saying, “No. No. No.” He’s the downer. “Don’t do this”, as we were just talking. “Don’t touch that pot of boiling water.” And the devil’s the one saying, “Oh, it’s okay. You can do it. Everybody’s gonna do it. Who’s gonna know? No one’s gonna know that you did this.” And then after we’ve sinned, it changes. The devil’s the one saying, “Would you look at what you did? And I’m gonna tell everyone what you did. Everyone’s gonna know what you did.” And our Lord’s saying, “Hey. Come here. Let’s get you healed of that.” But we have to admit to Him that, “I made a mistake. I harmed myself. I committed a sin.”
And I’ve heard, correct me if I’m wrong: but at the general judgment on the last day, that one of the differences between the souls that go to Hell and the souls that go to Heaven is we’re gonna have all of our things read against us. And the soul that goes to Hell is gonna be saying, “Please don’t read that. Please don’t tell people I did that. I’m ashamed of that. I’m embarrassed by that. I don’t want people to know.” And the soul in Heaven’s gonna say, “Yep, I did all of those things, but look what God did! Look how our Lord stepped in and overcame all of those stupid things that I did, that I couldn’t even fix. He fixed it!”

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

That’s gonna be a key thing. As a matter of fact, I oftentimes- My father was in the hospital for his final illness, and I’d be in the waiting room during surgery and stuff and all, and they’d be playing this awful show. And I’d never seen it. And I was just absolutely fascinated, not at the show. But why are you watching this? This is absurd. And as I watched the show and the people, there are two things I thought. One: these folks are watching because they could say, “Well, I know I’m bad, but I’m not that bad.” That’s one thing. Small comfort. The second is: I thought this is the best image of your first day in Hell. That you come out on stage, you don’t know what’s going on. All of a sudden, these people you’ve been sinning with start telling the crowd. And I remember one of the characters that had walked out there. He was just blindsided by it. And there’s all these things he did with these other people. And then the audience is cheering against you, and then you go behind the scene and the fires open up. You know? So that would be how I would he Hell. And you know what? That was such a good idea, some guy wrote an opera, and that was their whole theme of the opera. But it would be exactly that and how awful that would be.

Adam Wright:

Yeah. I wanna end with this: It’s really amazing when extraordinary things happen. Like, whether it’s the sporting event and you know, the other night, I think there were two grand slams, or no, that was twenty years ago. Two grand slams in one inning, and everyone’s cheering on our Saint Louis Cardinals here in town for that. Or in the spiritual sense, you look at the conversion of Saint Augustine. You know, one of the most notorious sinners, now one of the most prolific saints. And I like to think, maybe I’m just ignorant, I like to think that maybe I’m not as bad as Augustine was. But I also know that in my conversion, I’m most probably not anywhere near as great as he is in terms of spiritual writing and whatnot. And you think of those glory moments, that it’d be great for God to save someone as notorious Saint Augustine, and that we could say, “Look at what God did for Augustine. That’s absolutely amazing.” And yet, He still chooses to do it for the mediocre Adam Wright, who isn’t notorious, isn’t grand either. And what a humbling thing that is that He would step in for me and be my advocate, my paraclete as well.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Yeah. And I think that’s a very important element to remember that, two things: Nobody has committed a sin that is more powerful than the death of God, the Son on the cross. No matter how bad your sin is, His death on the cross is more powerful than your sin. Secondly, there’s nobody who is so small and insignificant as not to get infinite attention and love from God, and forgiveness. God can’t love partially. It’s contrary to His nature. The only way He can love is infinitely. And He can give infinite attention to every single cell in your body, let alone to you.
So nobody is insignificant, and nobody is beyond redemption. That is key, whereas I think a lot of people are doing, and tempted by the evil one on this, but they are willing to commit suicide, but add to it by taking other people’s lives as they do so. You know, this is despair. Horrible despair. And paying attention to God is the antidote. Trusting in Him is the antidote to that kind of despair that would say, “I’m going to Hell and I’m taking these people with me.” That is something that we have to recognize. No. That’s just a lie from the father of lies. Jesus cares about you and nothing in your life is too far beyond what He can forgive. Nothing. His death on the cross has infinite value, and that can overcome any sin. Except that sin against the Holy Spirit, which, as Saint Thomas made clear, is the sin by which somebody says, “No. No. God can’t forgive me. I’m beyond it.” That’s the sin against the Holy Spirit. And nobody should ever, ever agree to commit in that sin.

Adam Wright:

I can think of no better way to conclude our time together than by asking you if you could lead us in a prayer.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa:

Sure. Well, Jesus, we praise you and bless you. We thank you for the redemption that you won for us by your saving death on the cross and the new life you bestowed by your glorious resurrection. Make us always filled with your grace. And by the grace you give us, help us to absolutely trust in you and the redemption you’ve won for us. Give us that faith so that we might always cling to you no matter how difficult life might be, and find your way out of the problems we’re in, and your way in to the heavenly eternal life. Amen.

Adam Wright:

Well, Father Mitch Pacwa, I want to thank you for being with us on Roadmap to Heaven here on Covenant Network. If you want to hear more from Father Mitch, or you’d like to hear this interview again, go to our website, ourcatholicradio.org, where you can find the schedule of programs as well as the Roadmap to Heaven podcast. You can share it with friend, a family member, anybody you want to share it with. In the meantime, we’re going to take a break. Don’t go anywhere.