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In this episode of Roadmap to Heaven, host Adam Wright and guest Doug Barry explore the spiritual practice of prayer and fasting. Doug delves into the importance of fasting as a means of training and preparing oneself for the challenges of the spiritual life. He emphasizes that fasting is not solely a spiritual practice, but it also has psychological and emotional effects that help individuals deal with other challenges they may face.
Doug Barry dispels the misconception that God only cares about the spiritual aspects of our being and explains that ignoring the physical part of who we are goes against the theology of the church. Fasting, he explains, is a form of training and building up, similar to physical exercise. It effectively drives out evil and sends a message to the devil that we are taking control over our will.
Throughout the episode, Doug encourages listeners to persevere in their faith and in their practice of fasting. He urges them to resist the temptation to quit, acknowledging that perseverance is a necessary component of the spiritual journey. Adam points out the connection between prayer and fasting, recognizing that these practices go hand in hand, especially at times when the fasting feels tough to get through.
Overall, this episode of Roadmap to Heaven embraces the power of prayer and fasting in deepening one’s relationship with God and strengthening one’s spiritual life. It offers practical advice for incorporating fasting into daily life and highlights the transformative effects it can have on individuals.
Adam Wright:
When it’s time to do a segment on fasting, there are a few people that come to mind, and always near the top of that list is Doug Barry. Doug, it’s good to have you with us on Roadmap to Heaven today.
Doug Barry:
Thanks, Adam. I always appreciate being with you.
Adam Wright:
Alright. Let’s jump to the gospels. There is a man possessed by a demon. I believe it’s a man. They try to drive the demon out, and our Lord says, “This kind can only be driven out by prayer and fasting.” Not “or”. That’s what I want to focus on today: the power of prayer and fasting. And sometimes [people say] “I pray. I’m good, Doug. I pray.” Do you fast? “Oh, no. But I pray.” Right? The two go hand in hand.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. That is a phenomenal story. You got a couple of the synoptic gospels that address the same story, and it’s a young man. It’s a son, and the father comes to Jesus and he says, “My son is possessed. He falls into fire. He falls into water. Your disciples couldn’t cure him,” and he’s frustrated. Obviously, anybody who goes to Jesus and says, “Your disciples couldn’t pull this off. I don’t know what to do.” I think a lot of us have understood that. Again, the proverbial, literal or figurative, that I’m sitting on the edge of my bed with my face buried in my hands saying, “Lord, I don’t know.” Jesus says – if anybody ever wonders if Jesus is a little bit on that kind of demanding side – He says, “How long must I endure you? How long must I be around you? Bring the boy to me.” I’ve always questioned that part because I wondered if He’s saying, “You know what? I tell you, I show you, how long does this gotta go on?” But it does also say that there’s something in Jesus that says it’s not just a free ride. You have to accept this of your own free will and engage in this. “Bring the boy to me” and boom, he casts out the demons.
Now the disciples have enough guts – and, again, you’ll find this broken down in both these two synoptic gospels – to come to Jesus and say, “Why couldn’t we do this?” Now, Jesus has expressed some frustration with them all, but still they come and ask, “Why couldn’t we do this?” And He says, the one that you mentioned, because some of these demons basically can only be cast out through prayer and fasting. There is this physical component to that. Now that’s a powerful gospel to think about for all of us. What is this thing with fasting then? Then the church has given us specific times, seasons to fast in different ways, especially during Lent, of course, with abstinence for meat and then so many meals and this and that. Which, talk about really making it light – it’s not hard, people. It’s not hard. To have three meals in a day, one big one and two small ones, and the two small ones together can’t exceed more than the big one. “Well, then I can just adjust the size of my meals and make that work for me. Right?” Look, fasting is supposed to make us uncomfortable. It’s supposed to, in some way, have a level and a degree of difficulty. Otherwise, what good is it in doing it?
Adam Wright:
Well, I was just gonna say that, because I can make a list of things in life that- I don’t particularly enjoy having cavities drilled. Don’t particularly enjoy that one. Having to do yard work, don’t particularly enjoy that. However, I feel a lot better if I take care of my teeth, especially if I do have a cavity, getting it filled versus the alternate option of just letting it go on. Which, sadly I’ve done and found out the hard way. Get the cavity drilled. My neighbors appreciate it when I take care of the yard. And you know what? I appreciate it too, but this isn’t just a superficial, physical thing. You know, that oh, it’s good to be uncomfortable every now and then. It’s some sort of, physical exercise.
There is something that happens on a supernatural level when we fast. Doug, you talk about training quite a bit with Battle Ready. There’s some training that goes on there, too. Because I think of those nights that I’m like, “Oh.” I’ll tell you a quick story. We went bowling with the kids a while back, and I was like, “Beth. Bowling alley food. I remember that from being a teenager. It’s the greasy cheeseburger and the French fries with the cheese sauce and the big old soda. Who needs the oil on lane? It’s all on the food.” And she goes, “No. Because if you eat that, then when we get home, you’re gonna want to eat this…” My wife knows me, and she was right. If I keep seeking comfort after comfort after comfort, well, you know what? Sin is comfortable too. Lust is comfortable. Gluttony is comfortable. The list goes on and on. But if I say, “Okay, let’s not be comfortable. Let’s abstain from the comfort of how good that cheeseburger would be”, it helps prepare us for other hard things in the spiritual life.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. There’s a psychological emotional piece to the training of those things, that no doubt, is part of the fruit, the reward of it. This is something, again we have to remember. As many years as I’ve done this work, and traveled and spoken. I’m on 33 years now, traveling and speaking all over the country and outside the country. And I can tell you how many times people have come to me and there’s always that piece of the puzzle that says, you know, “God’s not worried about the body. He’s only focused on the spiritual.” And that’s not true, okay? There is a physical component to who we are. We’re created body and soul. We’re created. There is this union. In the final resurrection, we come back together body and soul. Okay? Death was not the original plan. Alright? Death is the result because of sin entering the world. So this idea that we should just ignore the physical part of who we are and not pay attention to some of these details doesn’t jive with the theology of the church.
Now, that being said, what you made clear there is important to remember. There is a training. There is a building up of. There is a strengthening of this. You know? I’ve been working out since I was 12. Okay? I’m 58. And I’ve probably missed maybe about a month and a half. I was really sick 6 or 7 years ago, and I couldn’t do any working out at all. That was the only time I’ve gone that long without exercising. So what I’m saying is my body is very used to some form of exercise or workout consistently for over 40 years. That being said, there are a lot of people who don’t do that. So if you throw them into a workout program and there’s no preparation, no training, no building up for it, it can throw them into a real chaotic tailspin. Because their body is going to freak out. “I can’t understand what you’re doing here. My muscles have never done this” and so forth.
When you fast you, in effect, can do the same thing emotionally and psychologically to deal with other challenges too. If I’m fasting consistently – again, we’re talking psychologically and emotionally right now. The spiritual ramifications of fasting, when it’s offered up, are beyond our comprehension. There’s mystery to that: how can fasting effectively help drive out evil? I don’t think anybody can fully explain that except the saints have talked about the power of it. We know the demons are bothered, because what you’re doing of your own free will is you’re denying something that is so intricate to who you are: food. It is one of the most basic things that is in essence of who we are. I’ve got to eat. It’s called living. It’s called sustaining life. Right? When you deny that and put that in a certain perspective, you’re sending a message to the devil that you are taking control over your will and you’re driving him away. And there’s some amazing mystery to that.
But to build up to that psychologically and emotionally plays a part, too. I mean, you know as well as I that when you’re going on certain types of fasting – and this would be, years ago, going half a day is like, “Oh my goodness. I can’t believe this.” Ash Wednesday, only three meals. “When are you gonna eat your first meal?” “I’m gonna try to stretch it out to noon. And then if I go from noon to six, and then maybe I’ll get another meal in by nine in the evening, and then I’ll psychologically be able to get through the day on three meals.” That’s crazy, I think.
Adam Wright:
Yeah. Let’s draw a line here, though, between fasting and abstinence. Both are good. But abstinence is “I’m not going to enjoy this. I’m going to give a chocolate for Lent. Or on Fridays I’m going to do this abstinence for meat all year round.” Which, by the way, real quick disclaimer. It’s not just a Lenten thing on Fridays throughout the year, except solemnities, called to abstain from meat or do some other form of penance on the non-Lenten Fridays, but let’s be easy. Abstain from meat. It’s easy. It’s simple to remember. Fasting – you’re literally dying to self, quite literally, because you’re not taking in enough food to meet that caloric need. And, Doug, I think of that passage where the rich young man goes away sad. Why? Because Jesus said, “Well, if you really want to follow me, deny yourself.” Deny. Not pray. He did say pray, but deny yourself, that’s part of it. And I think that’s part of what we don’t understand. Our Lord is saying to us, He doesn’t say, “Understand why I’m telling you to deny yourself and what’s happening supernaturally.” He just says, “Do it.”
Doug Barry:
That’s the key part there, is the denial. And that’s something that you see, the fact that He shows us what that looks like. He shows us that by going into the desert for 40 days, 40 nights, before he begins his public ministry. He denies himself, obviously, when he’s carrying the cross and so many other key places. But there are also places where Jesus shows that it’s okay to celebrate and enjoy. Like when they come to Him and they say, “Your disciples, they eat and they’re not fasting.” He goes, “Time’s coming, when the bridegroom’s not gonna be here. You’re gonna get that later.” So our Lord is not saying that it’s bad. He’s saying that when you deny yourself, you’re putting things in a different perspective. Spiritually speaking, you’re strengthening yourself psychologically, emotionally. You’re affecting both the spiritual and natural part of who you are. You’re basically mastering your passions. One of the greatest passions we have is the passion to do what you mentioned there, Adam, and that is make things easy. We want to be comfortable. We love excess. We love the all-you-can-eat buffet. I’m going to put my 10 bucks or 15 bucks or whatever it is, I’m going to make sure I get my money’s worth, people. How many people have had that in their head? “Got to get my money’s worth. I only had three platefuls of food. But I paid 15 bucks and it’s all you can eat. I should get another plateful of food.” Okay, we’ve got the big screen TV. We’ve got the AI in the house now, the Siri and the Alexa. Everything is easy. We want the heated seats, the heated steering wheels. We want everything comfortable. In excess.
Fasting says – and even mortification, we want to bring that into this a little bit here, too. Fasting from food, mortifying the senses through some form of physical denial. Denying yourself these excessive comforts and so forth is a powerful way of mastering your passions. And I believe it’s the book of Sirach that says, “Master your passions, or they will master you.” Fasting is one of the great ways to master passions. And if you can master the eating, there are so many other areas you can master. It helps you, it strengthens you to deal with the anger issues you might have, the lustful issues you might have, the greed, the gossip. If you can master the food, maybe you can master your tongue and stop talking about people the way you shouldn’t talk about people. Saint Paul says, “If you can master your tongue, you can master every member of the body.” Okay? So in other words, can we control even what we’re saying? Well, there’s an area there of discipline and mastery over passions that fasting is a key part to help every other area of who we are.
Adam Wright:
Alright. Now practically speaking, I want to offer a couple ideas here for our viewers and for our listeners. So for those of you watching, those of you listening, couple things. As Doug just said, mortification: easy thing to do. Hair shirts aren’t really a thing you can go get. I haven’t even seen them online anywhere. But, you know, you could go get a wool shirt that’s itchy and uncomfortable and wear that or cold showers. That’s one of the things the guys that do Exodus 90 do on a regular basis, are cold showers. I like to use timers. There are some things in life, that – I have a sore back sometimes, and I need to put heat on it. It’d be really easy to say, “Oh, I’m going to take a nice long 30 minute hot shower.” I don’t even know if our hot water heater has the capability of doing it, but say, “No, I’m not. I’m going to put a three minute timer on it.” Get in, wash everything, get out. Done. But don’t linger. Same thing with food. “Oh, I could eat the all-you-can-eat.” No. And I’m going to have small portions intentionally. Whether it’s that food, that physical mortification, that abstinences are all good things.
But, Doug, here’s where I’d like to go to kind of wrap this up today. This idea of transactional theology, I like to call it, that “Alright, Lord. I’m doing this for you. So what are you going do for me? I’m fasting for you. So what are you going to do for me?” And, really, first Fridays, first Saturdays. Same thing. We think about it like, “Well, they said do this, and then we get these promises.” No. It’s about you draw closer to our Lord, you’re going to be close to His grace. Scott Hahn has a great book out about this right now: Holy is His Name. And the whole idea is: where does holiness come from? It comes from God. So if we draw close to God, it’ll be a lot easier to be holy. So in all of this, Doug, I guess that’s really the question I have. Whether it’s the fasting, the mortification, the abstinence, when we talk about the supernatural, it’s not so much, “Alright. God, I’m doing this for you, so what are you going to do for me?” but that willful choice using the intellect and the will to say, “I want to be closer to you.” Then God’s probably going welcome us closer to Him and give us that grace.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. Absolutely. There’s no way the scripture says you can outdo God in generosity. There’s no way. It shouldn’t be this “I’ll do this, you do that” sort of attitude. It should be out of love. What do you do out of love for someone? You give and you don’t ask for anything in return. If you truly love, you’re willing to sacrifice, and you don’t sacrifice with the attitude that “I’ve got to make sure I get something back.” But God, in His infinite goodness and unbelievable mysterious power and love, always responds to whatever we give Him. And you just cannot escape that reality. When we fast and pray, when we mortify, when we take these more challenging steps of putting ourselves in ways that will help master the passions, and shape the mind and the heart, and deepen that spiritual connection with Him. Deep dialogue type prayer, not just check box prayer, but dialogue. I want to communicate. I’m begging to have that deeper relationship. Fasting. “Lord, I really want to make this a gift to you.”
Then I would say to people out there who would say, “Oh, that’s great. You guys are on Catholic radio talking about this. Maybe you understand this.” Look, I don’t understand this. I don’t know anybody who understands the mystery. I’ve asked many priests and very holy people out there questions about certain things regarding faith, and they’ll say, “Well, let me give you this answer.” And then some of them will say, “But then again, Doug, we don’t always know exactly what God’s doing with this and that. We know the church is teaching, the deposit of faith. We know this and that, but we don’t know necessarily how God is actually changing a heart and a soul when it comes to these moments.”
So on one hand, I would add, we you gave some great practical ideas. Sometimes if I’m going to eat, I’ll wait 15 or 30 minutes longer. Okay, I’ll wait until noon or I’ll wait until three. Oh, I’m gonna eat half as much as I was going to eat, or I won’t put salt on the food this time, if it really needs it. Or I won’t use ketchup or I won’t drink anything other than water. You can find ways to do this and really challenge and test yourself. Think outside the box on those things, people. Let’s all get on board with the challenging of that. But in general, Adam, this is one of those things, fasting and mortification, when we deepen that relationship with God – and that’s exactly like you said, what He wants. He wants to draw us deeper and closer to Him.
I’ll wrap it up with this thought. When the prince of theologians, Saint Thomas Aquinas, had written the most amazing things and still to this day is considered one of the most amazing writers and deep spiritual minds out there. Towards end of his life had a spiritual ecstasy where God touched him and showed him things. And when he came out of this moment, he wanted to burn everything he’d written. He says, “Everything I’ve written is straw, straw compared to what God just showed me.” This was a man that it is said could dictate to five different people, five different topics to write down, on theological matters. Like, I can’t even dictate, “This is how you change the oil of the car. This is how you bake cookies. This is how you change out a light fixture.” Now I can do all of those things individually, but to dictate to five different people to write it down and make it a book, he was able to do that on things like the Trinity and the Immaculate Conception. This is a man who was given gifts that we can’t comprehend. And still he says, “Everything God just showed me, everything I’ve written pales, it’s straw, in comparison.” So the depth of of what God wants to do in our lives and how He wants to bring us to Him, I would say this, God doesn’t want us just walking on water like Peter. He wants us running on it. He wants us to have that faith that says, “Mountains move, and trees get up and replant.” He can do this. He wants the depth and we can grow closer with the deeper prayer, the fasting, and the mortification.
Adam Wright:
Yeah. You know, as you say that, we don’t have to understand and know fully. We’re not going be able to know fully on this side of the veil. Let’s be honest about that. And along those lines, I don’t understand how water filtration works, but that doesn’t mean I’m taking my glass and just getting unfiltered Mississippi River water and drinking that with my afternoon snack. No snack – we’re talking about fasting. But here’s the other thing, and let’s wrap up with this. Doug and I will be the first to tell you: this thing right here, the Rosary. For those of you listening, you can’t see it, but we’re holding up a Rosary. When you’re fasting and it’s hard, that’s the time to really couple it with prayer. Just don’t give in. Don’t give in and say, “Oh, you know what? To heck with it, no one’s going to fault me for going to eat that cheeseburger.” Go pray your Rosary and ask the Lord to give you the grace you need to keep fasting, because Doug threw out all of this. The one thing that we’ve kept coming back to without explicitly saying it is: What can you give God that He doesn’t already have or He couldn’t take for Himself? Nothing, right? But everybody could give God gold. Everybody could give God a precious something or other. No one but you can make you fast. No one can say, “I am willingly going to have Adam Wright give up food” other than Adam Wright. It’s your free will. Our free will is the one gift no one else can give God. Only you and I. So make that choice, do some fasting, outside of Lent, all year round. I think last time we were joking, Doug, Exodus 3:13 – 365 days a year minus the 52 Sundays. But, for legal reasons, not Exodus 3:13. But the Exodus guys are friends of ours, so we’re probably good there. But fast, fast, fast, and pray.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. Exactly. Take it to the next level and make sure that when you find yourself struggling with these things, I just want to emphasize to everybody, don’t beat yourself up for your humanity. But keep persevering. Remember that scripture verse, Jesus says, “Those who persevere to the end will find salvation.” Not those who figure it out and never fall again. Not those who never make another mistake. Not those who have all the intellectual powers of the world. No. It’s those who persevere. Whether you’re a rocket scientist or someone who just struggles getting through high school. I’m one of those guys who barely got out of high school. They gave me six credits to get rid of me. Imagine that. Never went to college. I’m a standard operating everyday Catholic. I was a clock-in, clock-out Catholic. Hand the holy water front walk in, clock in, check out after Mass. That was it. No matter what you are, where you are, what level you’re at, intellectually, spiritually, whatever: persevere. Don’t quit. The devil wants us to give it up and not move forward. So no matter what your situation: persevere.
Adam Wright:
Alright, Doug. Let’s honor the Blessed Mother because she’s done so much to encourage us in this message of prayer and fasting. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now at the hour of our death. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Prayer and fasting friends. Do it. Do it. And, on that note, we’re going to send you out to a break here on Roadmap to Heaven.
Adam Wright:
When it’s time to do a segment on fasting, there are a few people that come to mind, and always near the top of that list is Doug Barry. Doug, it’s good to have you with us on Roadmap to Heaven today.
Doug Barry:
Thanks, Adam. I always appreciate being with you.
Adam Wright:
Alright. Let’s jump to the gospels. There is a man possessed by a demon. I believe it’s a man. They try to drive the demon out, and our Lord says, “This kind can only be driven out by prayer and fasting.” Not “or”. That’s what I want to focus on today: the power of prayer and fasting. And sometimes [people say] “I pray. I’m good, Doug. I pray.” Do you fast? “Oh, no. But I pray.” Right? The two go hand in hand.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. That is a phenomenal story. You got a couple of the synoptic gospels that address the same story, and it’s a young man. It’s a son, and the father comes to Jesus and he says, “My son is possessed. He falls into fire. He falls into water. Your disciples couldn’t cure him,” and he’s frustrated. Obviously, anybody who goes to Jesus and says, “Your disciples couldn’t pull this off. I don’t know what to do.” I think a lot of us have understood that. Again, the proverbial, literal or figurative, that I’m sitting on the edge of my bed with my face buried in my hands saying, “Lord, I don’t know.” Jesus says – if anybody ever wonders if Jesus is a little bit on that kind of demanding side – He says, “How long must I endure you? How long must I be around you? Bring the boy to me.” I’ve always questioned that part because I wondered if He’s saying, “You know what? I tell you, I show you, how long does this gotta go on?” But it does also say that there’s something in Jesus that says it’s not just a free ride. You have to accept this of your own free will and engage in this. “Bring the boy to me” and boom, he casts out the demons.
Now the disciples have enough guts – and, again, you’ll find this broken down in both these two synoptic gospels – to come to Jesus and say, “Why couldn’t we do this?” Now, Jesus has expressed some frustration with them all, but still they come and ask, “Why couldn’t we do this?” And He says, the one that you mentioned, because some of these demons basically can only be cast out through prayer and fasting. There is this physical component to that. Now that’s a powerful gospel to think about for all of us. What is this thing with fasting then? Then the church has given us specific times, seasons to fast in different ways, especially during Lent, of course, with abstinence for meat and then so many meals and this and that. Which, talk about really making it light – it’s not hard, people. It’s not hard. To have three meals in a day, one big one and two small ones, and the two small ones together can’t exceed more than the big one. “Well, then I can just adjust the size of my meals and make that work for me. Right?” Look, fasting is supposed to make us uncomfortable. It’s supposed to, in some way, have a level and a degree of difficulty. Otherwise, what good is it in doing it?
Adam Wright:
Well, I was just gonna say that, because I can make a list of things in life that- I don’t particularly enjoy having cavities drilled. Don’t particularly enjoy that one. Having to do yard work, don’t particularly enjoy that. However, I feel a lot better if I take care of my teeth, especially if I do have a cavity, getting it filled versus the alternate option of just letting it go on. Which, sadly I’ve done and found out the hard way. Get the cavity drilled. My neighbors appreciate it when I take care of the yard. And you know what? I appreciate it too, but this isn’t just a superficial, physical thing. You know, that oh, it’s good to be uncomfortable every now and then. It’s some sort of, physical exercise.
There is something that happens on a supernatural level when we fast. Doug, you talk about training quite a bit with Battle Ready. There’s some training that goes on there, too. Because I think of those nights that I’m like, “Oh.” I’ll tell you a quick story. We went bowling with the kids a while back, and I was like, “Beth. Bowling alley food. I remember that from being a teenager. It’s the greasy cheeseburger and the French fries with the cheese sauce and the big old soda. Who needs the oil on lane? It’s all on the food.” And she goes, “No. Because if you eat that, then when we get home, you’re gonna want to eat this…” My wife knows me, and she was right. If I keep seeking comfort after comfort after comfort, well, you know what? Sin is comfortable too. Lust is comfortable. Gluttony is comfortable. The list goes on and on. But if I say, “Okay, let’s not be comfortable. Let’s abstain from the comfort of how good that cheeseburger would be”, it helps prepare us for other hard things in the spiritual life.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. There’s a psychological emotional piece to the training of those things, that no doubt, is part of the fruit, the reward of it. This is something, again we have to remember. As many years as I’ve done this work, and traveled and spoken. I’m on 33 years now, traveling and speaking all over the country and outside the country. And I can tell you how many times people have come to me and there’s always that piece of the puzzle that says, you know, “God’s not worried about the body. He’s only focused on the spiritual.” And that’s not true, okay? There is a physical component to who we are. We’re created body and soul. We’re created. There is this union. In the final resurrection, we come back together body and soul. Okay? Death was not the original plan. Alright? Death is the result because of sin entering the world. So this idea that we should just ignore the physical part of who we are and not pay attention to some of these details doesn’t jive with the theology of the church.
Now, that being said, what you made clear there is important to remember. There is a training. There is a building up of. There is a strengthening of this. You know? I’ve been working out since I was 12. Okay? I’m 58. And I’ve probably missed maybe about a month and a half. I was really sick 6 or 7 years ago, and I couldn’t do any working out at all. That was the only time I’ve gone that long without exercising. So what I’m saying is my body is very used to some form of exercise or workout consistently for over 40 years. That being said, there are a lot of people who don’t do that. So if you throw them into a workout program and there’s no preparation, no training, no building up for it, it can throw them into a real chaotic tailspin. Because their body is going to freak out. “I can’t understand what you’re doing here. My muscles have never done this” and so forth.
When you fast you, in effect, can do the same thing emotionally and psychologically to deal with other challenges too. If I’m fasting consistently – again, we’re talking psychologically and emotionally right now. The spiritual ramifications of fasting, when it’s offered up, are beyond our comprehension. There’s mystery to that: how can fasting effectively help drive out evil? I don’t think anybody can fully explain that except the saints have talked about the power of it. We know the demons are bothered, because what you’re doing of your own free will is you’re denying something that is so intricate to who you are: food. It is one of the most basic things that is in essence of who we are. I’ve got to eat. It’s called living. It’s called sustaining life. Right? When you deny that and put that in a certain perspective, you’re sending a message to the devil that you are taking control over your will and you’re driving him away. And there’s some amazing mystery to that.
But to build up to that psychologically and emotionally plays a part, too. I mean, you know as well as I that when you’re going on certain types of fasting – and this would be, years ago, going half a day is like, “Oh my goodness. I can’t believe this.” Ash Wednesday, only three meals. “When are you gonna eat your first meal?” “I’m gonna try to stretch it out to noon. And then if I go from noon to six, and then maybe I’ll get another meal in by nine in the evening, and then I’ll psychologically be able to get through the day on three meals.” That’s crazy, I think.
Adam Wright:
Yeah. Let’s draw a line here, though, between fasting and abstinence. Both are good. But abstinence is “I’m not going to enjoy this. I’m going to give a chocolate for Lent. Or on Fridays I’m going to do this abstinence for meat all year round.” Which, by the way, real quick disclaimer. It’s not just a Lenten thing on Fridays throughout the year, except solemnities, called to abstain from meat or do some other form of penance on the non-Lenten Fridays, but let’s be easy. Abstain from meat. It’s easy. It’s simple to remember. Fasting – you’re literally dying to self, quite literally, because you’re not taking in enough food to meet that caloric need. And, Doug, I think of that passage where the rich young man goes away sad. Why? Because Jesus said, “Well, if you really want to follow me, deny yourself.” Deny. Not pray. He did say pray, but deny yourself, that’s part of it. And I think that’s part of what we don’t understand. Our Lord is saying to us, He doesn’t say, “Understand why I’m telling you to deny yourself and what’s happening supernaturally.” He just says, “Do it.”
Doug Barry:
That’s the key part there, is the denial. And that’s something that you see, the fact that He shows us what that looks like. He shows us that by going into the desert for 40 days, 40 nights, before he begins his public ministry. He denies himself, obviously, when he’s carrying the cross and so many other key places. But there are also places where Jesus shows that it’s okay to celebrate and enjoy. Like when they come to Him and they say, “Your disciples, they eat and they’re not fasting.” He goes, “Time’s coming, when the bridegroom’s not gonna be here. You’re gonna get that later.” So our Lord is not saying that it’s bad. He’s saying that when you deny yourself, you’re putting things in a different perspective. Spiritually speaking, you’re strengthening yourself psychologically, emotionally. You’re affecting both the spiritual and natural part of who you are. You’re basically mastering your passions. One of the greatest passions we have is the passion to do what you mentioned there, Adam, and that is make things easy. We want to be comfortable. We love excess. We love the all-you-can-eat buffet. I’m going to put my 10 bucks or 15 bucks or whatever it is, I’m going to make sure I get my money’s worth, people. How many people have had that in their head? “Got to get my money’s worth. I only had three platefuls of food. But I paid 15 bucks and it’s all you can eat. I should get another plateful of food.” Okay, we’ve got the big screen TV. We’ve got the AI in the house now, the Siri and the Alexa. Everything is easy. We want the heated seats, the heated steering wheels. We want everything comfortable. In excess.
Fasting says – and even mortification, we want to bring that into this a little bit here, too. Fasting from food, mortifying the senses through some form of physical denial. Denying yourself these excessive comforts and so forth is a powerful way of mastering your passions. And I believe it’s the book of Sirach that says, “Master your passions, or they will master you.” Fasting is one of the great ways to master passions. And if you can master the eating, there are so many other areas you can master. It helps you, it strengthens you to deal with the anger issues you might have, the lustful issues you might have, the greed, the gossip. If you can master the food, maybe you can master your tongue and stop talking about people the way you shouldn’t talk about people. Saint Paul says, “If you can master your tongue, you can master every member of the body.” Okay? So in other words, can we control even what we’re saying? Well, there’s an area there of discipline and mastery over passions that fasting is a key part to help every other area of who we are.
Adam Wright:
Alright. Now practically speaking, I want to offer a couple ideas here for our viewers and for our listeners. So for those of you watching, those of you listening, couple things. As Doug just said, mortification: easy thing to do. Hair shirts aren’t really a thing you can go get. I haven’t even seen them online anywhere. But, you know, you could go get a wool shirt that’s itchy and uncomfortable and wear that or cold showers. That’s one of the things the guys that do Exodus 90 do on a regular basis, are cold showers. I like to use timers. There are some things in life, that – I have a sore back sometimes, and I need to put heat on it. It’d be really easy to say, “Oh, I’m going to take a nice long 30 minute hot shower.” I don’t even know if our hot water heater has the capability of doing it, but say, “No, I’m not. I’m going to put a three minute timer on it.” Get in, wash everything, get out. Done. But don’t linger. Same thing with food. “Oh, I could eat the all-you-can-eat.” No. And I’m going to have small portions intentionally. Whether it’s that food, that physical mortification, that abstinences are all good things.
But, Doug, here’s where I’d like to go to kind of wrap this up today. This idea of transactional theology, I like to call it, that “Alright, Lord. I’m doing this for you. So what are you going do for me? I’m fasting for you. So what are you going to do for me?” And, really, first Fridays, first Saturdays. Same thing. We think about it like, “Well, they said do this, and then we get these promises.” No. It’s about you draw closer to our Lord, you’re going to be close to His grace. Scott Hahn has a great book out about this right now: Holy is His Name. And the whole idea is: where does holiness come from? It comes from God. So if we draw close to God, it’ll be a lot easier to be holy. So in all of this, Doug, I guess that’s really the question I have. Whether it’s the fasting, the mortification, the abstinence, when we talk about the supernatural, it’s not so much, “Alright. God, I’m doing this for you, so what are you going to do for me?” but that willful choice using the intellect and the will to say, “I want to be closer to you.” Then God’s probably going welcome us closer to Him and give us that grace.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. Absolutely. There’s no way the scripture says you can outdo God in generosity. There’s no way. It shouldn’t be this “I’ll do this, you do that” sort of attitude. It should be out of love. What do you do out of love for someone? You give and you don’t ask for anything in return. If you truly love, you’re willing to sacrifice, and you don’t sacrifice with the attitude that “I’ve got to make sure I get something back.” But God, in His infinite goodness and unbelievable mysterious power and love, always responds to whatever we give Him. And you just cannot escape that reality. When we fast and pray, when we mortify, when we take these more challenging steps of putting ourselves in ways that will help master the passions, and shape the mind and the heart, and deepen that spiritual connection with Him. Deep dialogue type prayer, not just check box prayer, but dialogue. I want to communicate. I’m begging to have that deeper relationship. Fasting. “Lord, I really want to make this a gift to you.”
Then I would say to people out there who would say, “Oh, that’s great. You guys are on Catholic radio talking about this. Maybe you understand this.” Look, I don’t understand this. I don’t know anybody who understands the mystery. I’ve asked many priests and very holy people out there questions about certain things regarding faith, and they’ll say, “Well, let me give you this answer.” And then some of them will say, “But then again, Doug, we don’t always know exactly what God’s doing with this and that. We know the church is teaching, the deposit of faith. We know this and that, but we don’t know necessarily how God is actually changing a heart and a soul when it comes to these moments.”
So on one hand, I would add, we you gave some great practical ideas. Sometimes if I’m going to eat, I’ll wait 15 or 30 minutes longer. Okay, I’ll wait until noon or I’ll wait until three. Oh, I’m gonna eat half as much as I was going to eat, or I won’t put salt on the food this time, if it really needs it. Or I won’t use ketchup or I won’t drink anything other than water. You can find ways to do this and really challenge and test yourself. Think outside the box on those things, people. Let’s all get on board with the challenging of that. But in general, Adam, this is one of those things, fasting and mortification, when we deepen that relationship with God – and that’s exactly like you said, what He wants. He wants to draw us deeper and closer to Him.
I’ll wrap it up with this thought. When the prince of theologians, Saint Thomas Aquinas, had written the most amazing things and still to this day is considered one of the most amazing writers and deep spiritual minds out there. Towards end of his life had a spiritual ecstasy where God touched him and showed him things. And when he came out of this moment, he wanted to burn everything he’d written. He says, “Everything I’ve written is straw, straw compared to what God just showed me.” This was a man that it is said could dictate to five different people, five different topics to write down, on theological matters. Like, I can’t even dictate, “This is how you change the oil of the car. This is how you bake cookies. This is how you change out a light fixture.” Now I can do all of those things individually, but to dictate to five different people to write it down and make it a book, he was able to do that on things like the Trinity and the Immaculate Conception. This is a man who was given gifts that we can’t comprehend. And still he says, “Everything God just showed me, everything I’ve written pales, it’s straw, in comparison.” So the depth of of what God wants to do in our lives and how He wants to bring us to Him, I would say this, God doesn’t want us just walking on water like Peter. He wants us running on it. He wants us to have that faith that says, “Mountains move, and trees get up and replant.” He can do this. He wants the depth and we can grow closer with the deeper prayer, the fasting, and the mortification.
Adam Wright:
Yeah. You know, as you say that, we don’t have to understand and know fully. We’re not going be able to know fully on this side of the veil. Let’s be honest about that. And along those lines, I don’t understand how water filtration works, but that doesn’t mean I’m taking my glass and just getting unfiltered Mississippi River water and drinking that with my afternoon snack. No snack – we’re talking about fasting. But here’s the other thing, and let’s wrap up with this. Doug and I will be the first to tell you: this thing right here, the Rosary. For those of you listening, you can’t see it, but we’re holding up a Rosary. When you’re fasting and it’s hard, that’s the time to really couple it with prayer. Just don’t give in. Don’t give in and say, “Oh, you know what? To heck with it, no one’s going to fault me for going to eat that cheeseburger.” Go pray your Rosary and ask the Lord to give you the grace you need to keep fasting, because Doug threw out all of this. The one thing that we’ve kept coming back to without explicitly saying it is: What can you give God that He doesn’t already have or He couldn’t take for Himself? Nothing, right? But everybody could give God gold. Everybody could give God a precious something or other. No one but you can make you fast. No one can say, “I am willingly going to have Adam Wright give up food” other than Adam Wright. It’s your free will. Our free will is the one gift no one else can give God. Only you and I. So make that choice, do some fasting, outside of Lent, all year round. I think last time we were joking, Doug, Exodus 3:13 – 365 days a year minus the 52 Sundays. But, for legal reasons, not Exodus 3:13. But the Exodus guys are friends of ours, so we’re probably good there. But fast, fast, fast, and pray.
Doug Barry:
Yeah. Exactly. Take it to the next level and make sure that when you find yourself struggling with these things, I just want to emphasize to everybody, don’t beat yourself up for your humanity. But keep persevering. Remember that scripture verse, Jesus says, “Those who persevere to the end will find salvation.” Not those who figure it out and never fall again. Not those who never make another mistake. Not those who have all the intellectual powers of the world. No. It’s those who persevere. Whether you’re a rocket scientist or someone who just struggles getting through high school. I’m one of those guys who barely got out of high school. They gave me six credits to get rid of me. Imagine that. Never went to college. I’m a standard operating everyday Catholic. I was a clock-in, clock-out Catholic. Hand the holy water front walk in, clock in, check out after Mass. That was it. No matter what you are, where you are, what level you’re at, intellectually, spiritually, whatever: persevere. Don’t quit. The devil wants us to give it up and not move forward. So no matter what your situation: persevere.
Adam Wright:
Alright, Doug. Let’s honor the Blessed Mother because she’s done so much to encourage us in this message of prayer and fasting. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners, now at the hour of our death. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Prayer and fasting friends. Do it. Do it. And, on that note, we’re going to send you out to a break here on Roadmap to Heaven.
In this episode of Roadmap to Heaven, host Adam Wright and guest Doug Barry explore the spiritual practice of prayer and fasting. Doug delves into the importance of fasting as a means of training and preparing oneself for the challenges of the spiritual life. He emphasizes that fasting is not solely a spiritual practice, but it also has psychological and emotional effects that help individuals deal with other challenges they may face.
Doug Barry dispels the misconception that God only cares about the spiritual aspects of our being and explains that ignoring the physical part of who we are goes against the theology of the church. Fasting, he explains, is a form of training and building up, similar to physical exercise. It effectively drives out evil and sends a message to the devil that we are taking control over our will.
Throughout the episode, Doug encourages listeners to persevere in their faith and in their practice of fasting. He urges them to resist the temptation to quit, acknowledging that perseverance is a necessary component of the spiritual journey. Adam points out the connection between prayer and fasting, recognizing that these practices go hand in hand, especially at times when the fasting feels tough to get through.
Overall, this episode of Roadmap to Heaven embraces the power of prayer and fasting in deepening one’s relationship with God and strengthening one’s spiritual life. It offers practical advice for incorporating fasting into daily life and highlights the transformative effects it can have on individuals.
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