Youtube Interviews
In this episode of Roadmap to Heaven, host Adam Wright is joined by guest Father Wade Menezes to discuss the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The celebration of Corpus Christi is explored, and the importance of receiving the Eucharist reverently at Mass is highlighted.
Father Menezes emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist and calls for its promotion and sharing with both Catholics and non-Catholics. He references a 1965 encyclical by Pope St. Paul VI entitled “Mysterium Fidei,” which delves into the mystery of faith and reaffirms the doctrine of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist.
Father Menezes discusses the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves, which is the only miracle of Jesus found in all four gospels. He also mentions the road to Emmaus, where Jesus was recognized by his disciples in the breaking of the bread. He highlights that the Eucharist is a pledge of eternal glory and is connected to the marriage supper of the Lamb mentioned in the Book of Revelation.
Father Menezes also explains that transubstantiation is the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ during the Mass. He emphasizes that this sacramental presence in the Eucharist is considered the greatest miracle, surpassing the laws of nature.
The episode concludes by underscoring the need for clear teaching on the Eucharist and the importance of understanding its true presence. Overall, this episode of Roadmap to Heaven explores how important concepts like the Eucharist and transubstantiation are great mysteries of faith.
Adam Wright:
Once again, we are happy to have with us Father Wade Menezes, from the Fathers of Mercy and host of EWTN’s Open Line Tuesday. It’s been great, Father, to have you joining us for this wonderful succession of liturgical feasts that began with Easter Sunday, followed by the Ascension of our Lord, followed by Pentecost, followed by Trinity Sunday, and now we are getting ready for the solemnity of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Corpus Christi, a wonderful feast in the life of the church. It brings back many fond memories as a young boy serving for the processions in the parish throughout the neighborhood, and then going to processions as a young adult, and and now into middle adulthood, as much as I don’t want to admit it, that’s where we’re at. But it’s good to have you with us coming to us today from Hanceville, the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament. So this is very fitting today, Father.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Yes. I’m here inside the priest retreat house at the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, Alabama. Just about 45 minutes north of EWTN proper where I’m doing some tapings for both radio and television this week, and it’s always a joy to come back to the shrine, Adam. This is my very, very first priestly assignment. When I was ordained in June of 2000 I was assigned here as the priest in residence to serve the pilgrims and to assist the Franciscan friars down at EWTN who would drive up regularly to also not only assist the pilgrims, but to assist the nuns as well, for their sacramental needs and the pilgrims for their evangelical needs. And so it’s always a joy to come back and the whole shrine is built under the aura of of the Divino Niño, the Christ child, but the official title is the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament. So what a beautiful location here this week to go ahead and be talking about Corpus Christi, the patronal feast day of the shrine, in fact.
Adam Wright:
Now, Father, I imagine like every other feast we’ve been talking about over the past few weeks, the timing of this is not coincidental. Like, oh, isn’t it great we’ve had Father Wade on to talk about this and then that? And, oh, look here happens to be another thing on the calendar. This is all very specifically laid out. I know a few of the details going back to Pope Urban IV about this feast. But what can you tell us? I know you like to prepare for Open Line – I forget what you call it – a setup, basically, to say this is what we’re going to talk about today.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
My springboard, the first ten minutes of the show. Yeah.
Adam Wright:
So in your springboard for Roadmap to Heaven today, in our interview, what would you tell us about Corpus Christi?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Well, you know, it’s celebrated on the Octave Day of Trinity Sunday. Now, traditionally, it’s held on the Thursday after Trinity Sunday, which is the Octave Day of Pentecost, as we talked about last week when we talked about Trinity Sunday. But very few dioceses just keep it on the Thursday now, following the Second Vatican Council’s revamping of the universal calendar. And so the church permits either celebrating it on the traditional day of the Thursday following Trinity Sunday. Thursday, the weekday itself, per se, is traditionally a day set aside, in honor of The Most Blessed Sacrament, especially during ordinary time and ferial days. Ferial days are days that don’t have saints attached to them, either as obligatory memorials or even optional memorials. So you can celebrate the Votive Mass, for example, The Most Blessed Sacrament on a Thursday and on other days as well, but Thursday has a special marked reality about it for the Blessed Sacrament because the last supper took place on the the night of the arrest, which was holy Thursday night, the night before Good Friday when our Lord died for us.
So some diocese do also still celebrate Corpus Christi on the Thursday following Holy Trinity, but most diocese in the US celebrate it on the Sunday after Trinity Sunday. So it’s another octave we’re celebrating now, right? I say specifically a little octave because we are technically in ordinary time now. It’s not a major octave when we’re in a major liturgical season like Christmas or Easter, the big Christmas octave is December 25th, Christmas day, to January 1st. The Great Solemnity of Mary Mother of God, which also kicks off the new secular New Year’s right, New Year’s day. And then Easter being another major season, we have Easter Sunday itself, and its octave day is Divine Mercy Sunday or the second Sunday of Easter. Well, we’re technically in ordinary time now with Holy Trinity this past Sunday, Holy Trinity Sunday, and now Corpus Christi Sunday, this coming Sunday. But it’s still an octave and we celebrate it. And it follows from the celebration of the Trinity because we’re now reminded from last Sunday, Trinity Sunday, that we’re thanking the triune Godhead who gave us the paschal mystery and Pentecost. The paschal mystery being the passion, death, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord into Heaven, and fifthly, Pentecost itself. That’s why the octave day after Pentecost, we celebrate Trinity Sunday to precisely thank the triune Godhead who gave us the four-event event of the paschal mystery and Pentecost Sunday.
And now a week after honoring that triune Godhead, we recall the establishment of the reality of our Lord’s precious source and summit sacrament, His body and blood given to us, until the end of time, to feed us and to nourish us. One of the three sacraments of initiation, the most holy Eucharist, along with baptism and confirmation. And we harken now to the reality that the paschal mystery ushered in the reality of the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit leads us from Pentecost forward, the so called birthday of the church, to live, and share, and evangelize this great sacrament with others. We’re in the midst of this three-year Eucharistic Revival, and that’s something that cannot be lost sight of either. So this is kind of the unfurling of Lent, into the sacred Triduum, the passion and death of our Lord, then Easter Sunday, the resurrection, then ascension 40 days after, then Pentecost 10 days after that, then celebrating the triune Godhead on Trinity Sunday, the eighth day after Pentecost. The triune Godhead that made it all possible. Then now we’re going into Corpus Christi to remind us of the great gift of the Eucharist. And so, there’s an unfurling that’s very reasonable, and very theological, and very scriptural, too because all these events happen in this order as well. But with the Eucharist now, we’re harkening that the gift is still with us, the gift that was ushered in on Holy Thursday night.
Adam Wright:
One of my favorite stories that’s been handed down in the church is that when this feast was instituted by Pope Urban IV that he commissioned both Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Bonaventure to compose hymns and other texts for the office for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi, and that upon hearing Aquinas’s texts and hymns, Saint Bonaventure ripped up his manuscripts and said, “Don’t even bother with mine. These are so beautiful and so wonderful, we have to use these.” There’s a lot of great theology we get in the wonderful hymn, “Adoro Te Devote” by Saint Thomas Aquinas. We sing it every time we go to Benediction, the “Tantum Ergo”, some beautiful beautiful hymns that we have for this feast. What else do we want to know about?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Well, we know the great feast honors the precious body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And as you mentioned earlier, it was established and extended to the universal church by Pope Urban IV, who reigned from 1261 to 1264. This great solemnity really finds its origins, as far as it being established, in the controversies generated by Berengarius of Tours, who died in 1088, who made the presence of Christ and the eucharist more symbolic rather than real. And later too, the feast was promoted by the fully church approved visions of the servant of God Blessed Juliana of Mount Cornillon in Belgium, an Augustinian nun who understood from them that God wanted a feast established to honor the Blessed Sacrament. Now although these events happened in the 11th and 12th century, of course, the doctrine was something the church has always held since apostolic times. The church never defines a doctrine until and unless it’s challenged by heretics, and it was in the 11th and 12th centuries. So that’s why Pope Urban saw need to define clearly the wording of the doctrine and how we believe in the most Blessed Sacrament, and extend a universal feast in honor of it on the church’s universal calendar.
So again, the belief of Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist is upheld by Sacred Scripture, Tradition of the Magisterium, and I’ll get to those points in a moment. This is a doctrine, Adam, that sets Catholic Christians apart from their other Christian brothers and sisters, our Protestant brothers and sisters. Discussion of this doctrine would be incomplete without the mentioning of the term transubstantiation. Transubstantiation refers to the change of substance, trans (change), substantia (substance), the change of substance of bread and wine into fully, really, and substantially, the body blood solemnity of our Lord Jesus Christ to the words of consecration at mass. Although this fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church has been held by the faithful since apostolic times, the term transubstantiation was officially adopted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, precisely to describe the Eucharist mystery. This was reinforced by the Council of Trent, which closed in 1563 and, excuse me, 1565, and which spoke of a “wonderful and singular conversion”. It spoke of a wonderful and singular conversion of the Eucharistic elements. Pope Paul VI, too, in his 1965 encyclical on the Holy Eucharist Mysterium Fidei emphatically states, Adam, that the sacramental presence of Christ in the Eucharist surpasses the law of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind. Only a validly ordained priest can bring into existence the Most Holy Eucharist, and because of the reality of transubstantiation referenced to the Eucharist species as merely bread and wine following the words of consecration, are incorrect. They’re wrong. It’s more properly called, at that point, after the words of consecration, the body and blood of Christ. That cannot be forgotten of either.
We have many, many harkenings of the Old Testament, to the Eucharist that would be established by Christ in the New Testament. Again, Christ says, “I did not come to abolish the old law, but to bring it to fulfillment.” And it’s interesting that both in the Greek and the Hebrew language, fulfillment means “to render perfect”. To render the thing in question perfect. And once something is perfect, there’s no future changes to it, precisely because it’s now perfect. So again, Christ says, “I did not come to abolish the old law, but to bring it to fulfillment.” Hebrew and Greek tell us that fulfillment means to render perfect the thing in question, the thing that’s being talked about. Right? So here are some Old Testament harkenings, or what we call types or foreshadowings of the Eucharist that would be established by Christ in the upper room on the night of the arrest, to give us this most August sacrament, this most blessed sacrament, the source and summit of the entire Christian life as Vatican II teaches.
Listen to this. Melchizedek, the king and priest of Salem, he was a foreshadowing of the Eucharist priesthood. He was the first one to offer bread and wine, and it was very mysterious that he did. He didn’t slaughter the lambs. He offered bread and wine. Okay? Now the Jewish Passover meal involving the paschal lamb, was a prefigurement of the Eucharistic sacrifice who would come with Jesus himself as the lamb of God. Right? How about the manna in the desert that rained down for 40 years on the Israelites following their escape from Egyptian slavery? That mysterious bread-like substance that fed them for those 40 years. How about the old temple? The old temple was a prefigurement of the Eucharist of God dwelling among His people in their midst. It’s interesting that the word “tent” in Latin is “tabernaculum” which is also where we get the English word “tabernacle” from, and we reserve the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle throughout the week until the next Sunday’s Mass, for adoration purposes, secondarily, and primarily to have reserved, consecrated hosts to take to the sick and the homebound. This is why I love the three trope Angelus Prayer. The third trope before the third Hail Mary is: “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us” because He’s still dwelling among us even following His ascension into Heaven with His real true and abiding presence in the most Blessed Sacrament. But there’s more here. The original translation could be rendered thus: “And the word became flesh and He pitched His tent among us.” Tabernaculum, the Tabernacle, that houses the Blessed Sacrament, the most Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.
So this is very powerful stuff. How about Elijah with the hearth cakes? That was a prefigurement of the Eucharist’s food for the journey as it were. Think of Holy Viaticum at the end of one’s life, which is one of the five elements to receive in the so called last rites. Holy Viaticum, one’s final holy communion. If they’re able to receive it, they may not be depending on how they’re dying. For example, if they’re dying soon after a horrendous car accident and they’re now in ICU with all kinds of apparatus on them, they’re not able to receive Viaticum. But the fact is, Viaticum remains, if the person’s able, it remains one of the five elements to receive the last rites. The last rites constitute the five elements. So, confession, if the person feels the need to go. The anointing of the sick. Holy Viaticum. The prayers of commendation of the dying prayed over the person, which includes the litany of saints. And fifthly, and lastly, the apostolic pardon granted to the person as well. So Holy Viaticum is like food for the journey that we read about with Elijah and the hearth cakes in 1 Kings 19. How about Bethlehem? Adam, I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but you know what Bethlehem means in Hebrew?
Adam Wright:
I don’t remember Bethlehem, but I remember manger. So put me on the spot here, but I’m going to fail the first part of this test.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
It simply means house of bread. House of bread. Our Lord was born in a town named house of bread. I mean, do we need any more proof than that? Right? And our lady laid him in a manger, the “manducare” – to eat, to gnaw, to chew on. It’s much more graphic in the Latin. It means literally to gnaw on g n a w. She placed him in an eating trough. Our lady placed her baby boy, the God man incarnate in an eating trough. So all these are – Old Testament and New Testament now, I’m getting into the New Testament ones – foreshadowings of the Eucharist that would come to be established by our Lord in the upper room.
How about the wedding feast at Cana where we witness water change into the best of wine? And later at the last supper, wine changed into the blood of Christ. The multiplication of the loaves is the only miracle of our Lord to appear in all four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No other miracle of Jesus appears in all four gospels. Only that one does: the multiplication of the loaves miracle. The bread of life discourse in John chapter six. The last supper itself, wherein the eucharistic promises are fulfilled with the actual institution of the Holy Eucharist, the fifth luminous mystery of the Rosary. Right? How about the road to Emmaus when Jesus is recognized by the two disciples once they enter the home to have supper? They recognize Him in the what?
Adam Wright:
In the breaking of the bread.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
And then He vanishes from their sight. Exactly. Okay, demonstrating one of the four characteristics of the glorified risen state, which we’ve talked about in the past. Yeah, so the road to Emmaus, think of the fractio at Mass, the breaking of the bread at the Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God, that’s the breaking of bread. I think of the road to Emmaus scene every time the Agnus Dei beautifully takes place at Mass. They recognized Him in the breaking of the bread, at the Agnus Dei while it’s being chanted in English or Latin, I’m there breaking it and I’m recognizing Him in the breaking of the bread. You know, how awesome is that? Then the marriage supper of the lamb, right? The book of Revelation chapters 19 through 21, wherein we see now that the Eucharist is the pledge of eternal glory where we all hope to one day be seated down with the supper of the lamb Himself for all eternity. So the great feast of Corpus Christi, and I can’t stress enough, Adam, we’re in the midst of the three-year Eucharistic Revival. Okay? We need to promote this doctrine, get this doctrine out, and share it with Catholics and non-Catholics and the like. I mentioned earlier the 1965 encyclical by Pope Saint Paul VI titled “Mysterium Fidei” that’s Latin for “the mystery of faith”. The mystery of faith. Now, let’s think of the Mass now. When the priest does the two consecrations, the bread first into the body of our Lord, and then secondly, the wine into His precious blood. After each consecration, after the words of institution, or the words of consecration, are set for each species, he goes down and genuflects. Right? Well, when he goes down for his genuflection following the consecration of the precious blood, the wine into the precious blood, he comes up from that second genuflection, what are the first words out of the precelebrant’s mouth to the congregation?
Adam Wright:
Well, in my Latin English missal, I’ll tell you in the Latin, it’s “mysterium fidei”, but what we most commonly hear in English: “the mystery of faith”.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
The mystery of faith, the Mysterium Fidei. This is it. In other words, right after the two consecrations, the mystery of faith, here it is now. Both species on the altar. Do we believe it, or do we not believe it? Okay. This is powerful. So this is what Paul VI titled that encyclical at the closing year of the Second Vatican Council, Mysterium Fidei, the mystery of faith. And you know what that encyclical has, Adam? It has about 100 quotes, 100 to 150 quotes or so, from church fathers of the first seven through eight centuries, defending the doctrine of the most Holy Eucharist, and I want to share a few of those right now if I can. Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this, “We have been instructed in these matters and are now filled with an unshakable faith, that that which seems to be bread is no longer bread, though it tastes like it, but it is now the body of Christ. And that that which seems to be wine is no longer wine, though it tastes as such, but it is now the blood of Christ. Draw inner strength by receiving this bread as true spiritual food, and your soul will rejoice abundantly.” Because the accidents, or characteristics, (philosophical terms when talking about this sacrament) the accidents or characteristics do stay the same. Still looks like bread and wine, still tastes like bread and wine, still touches like bread and wine, if I was to touch either species. Still smells like bread and wine, but faith comes from hearing. Right? We’re told in the New Testament. What do I hear at the Mass? I hear the words of consecration. “This is my body. This is my blood.” Our Lord’s own words from the Last Supper. Faith comes from hearing. So the accidents and characteristics stay the same. This is why it’s wonderful, what Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Eucharistic hymn “Tantum Ergo”. He says what our senses (meaning the five senses: sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing) what our senses fail to fathom, following the consecration because the accidents and characteristics stay the same. What the senses fail to fathom, let us grasp through faith’s consent, and faith comes through hearing. And I hear the words of consecration at Mass. Okay?.
Adam Wright:
I love that one – oh, I’m sorry, Father. I love that lyric in the Tantum Ergo, that faith will tell us Christ is present when our human senses fail.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
That’s the other translation of the same exact line. I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s the same exact line but a different English translation. Cyril continues, Cyril of Alexandria, “Christ said, indicating the bread and wine, ‘This is my body and this is my blood’ in order that you might not judge what you see to be a mere figure of His body and blood. Indeed, the offerings by the hidden power of God Almighty are changed into Christ’s body and blood. And by receiving these, we come to share in the lifegiving and sanctifying efficacy of Jesus Christ.” How beautiful is that? Right? Saint John Chrysostom. I love this because John Chrysostom sounds kind of in your face here. Which is a good thing because he’s being apologetically truthful and he’s trying to convey the point. Listen to this. He says, “It is not the power of that man up there [meaning the priest] It is not the power of that man up there which makes what is put before us the body and blood of Christ. But rather the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing up there in the place of Christ says these words of institution, but their power and grace are from God. ‘This is my body’ that priest says, and these words transform what lies before him.” Isn’t that great? I mean, another great bumper sticker if it wasn’t so long. Right?
Adam Wright:
Right. We don’t need to mince words here. We need to be very clear and very direct about who we are talking about. You know, that’s one of the things, this is nowhere near as good as the saints you quoted, Father, but here at Covenant Network, we like to say that before consecration, we talk about it. After consecration, we talk about who.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Yeah. It versus who. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Then from the Jerusalem catecheses, which is attributed to Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. I just quoted Cyril of Alexandria and John Chrysostom. So this is a different Cyril. This is Cyril of Jerusalem who gave us his wonderful Jerusalem catecheses from the early fourth century, that many parts of it are still used at the Easter vigil for the three sacraments of initiation for catechumens. How awesome is that, that the current Roman ritual for the Easter vigil’s initiation of those three sacraments of new catechumens coming into the church, many elements of that ritual comes from the Jerusalem catecheses? How beautiful is that? He says this, “Since Christ himself has declared the bread to be His body, who can have any further doubt? And since He Himself has said quite categorically, ‘This is my blood’ who would dare to question it and say that it is not His blood? Do not then regard the eucharistic elements as ordinary bread and wine. For they are, in fact, the body and blood of the Lord, as He Himself has declared. Whatever your sentences may tell you, be strong in faith. You have been taught and you are firmly convinced that what looks and tastes like bread and wine is no longer bread and wine, but truly the body and blood of Christ.” Again, very clear, very to the point. I love it. I love it. You know, there were two great quotes on the trinity that I love their directness and their curtness, and no room for argumentation, the full apologetics of the faith was there. To recall from our episode a week ago on the most Holy Trinity, the first one was from Saint Turibius of Montenegro. He says, talking about the trinity, “God is the infinite perfect being who is the most Holy Trinity.” I mean, everything’s just right there. And I think of that with these quotes on the Eucharist from these church fathers. The other one on the trinity was from Saint Columban, the famous seventh-century abbot. He says, “Who then is God? I shall tell you who is God. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God. Therefore, do not look for any other answers concerning God.” It’s like everything’s right there, you know? And just great defense of the faith. Great defense of the faith.
Adam Wright:
It really is. It takes me back to my days when I was in high school youth group, and we were getting a wonderful catechesis on our Lord’s true presence in the Most Holy Eucharist. And the priest said, “Listen, bread does not have free will. Wine does not have free will. So when our Lord says, ‘This is my body’ it’s not as if the bread can disobey. It has to obey. It has to give up itself and become our Lord.” I love this, Father, because so often I fear that we don’t speak clearly enough about the Eucharist, and it’s led to somewhat of a watered down faith or understanding. Then we sing things that talk about a meal, and talk about how wonderful bread is, and how wonderful wine is, and we negate the true presence of our Lord.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Right. Well, you know, the church does officially teach it as both sacrifice and banquet. And we especially see the banquet imagery regarding the Eucharist in the book of Revelation. This is why Dr. Scott Hahn says a great element of his conversion process from Presbyterianism was when it dawned on him that the Mass, the literal Catholic Mass, is the book of Revelation brought into our midst. You know, given the four senses of scripture, the literal and the spiritual. The spiritual has the three subsets: the moral, allegorical, and anagogical. Right? So there’s four senses of scripture from two parent categories. The two parent categories again are the literal, (meaning taking the words at face value, they mean what they say, the actual words) but then there’s the spiritual parent category. The two parent categories of scripture: literal and spiritual. Well, the spiritual, the second one, has three subsets. Again, the moral, allegorical, and anagogical. And it’s in those senses, especially the allegorical and anagogical that Scott Hahn saw the Mass being enacted of the literal book of Revelation, or the book of Revelation being enacted in the Mass, more appropriately said. This was very profound for him, a very profound element of his conversion, and he witnesses about it.
But going back to what you just said about when you were growing up in high school and taking your faith courses, it’s not as if the bread can disobey. It can’t. Or the wine can disobey, it can’t. It’s the words of God commanding it. Right? Listen to this. This is why – I’ve already said that the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves is the only miracle that appears in all four gospels, Matthew Mark, Luke and John. Now listen to this: John chapter six, which gives us the bread of life discourse. Okay? Are we ready for this? This is pretty awesome. At the very beginning of John chapter 6, because the bread of life discourse, I believe it starts with 50 and right around the late 40s or the early 50s of verse numbers. I think it’s verse 50, but listen to this. At the very beginning of John chapter six, we have the multiplication of the loaves, which begins John chapter six. And then right after the multiplication of the loaves is the miracle of Jesus walking on water. These two miracles, the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves at the beginning of John chapter six, immediately followed by Jesus walking on water, shows that He has power over natural elements like wheat and bread, like water. Natural elements, He has power over. However, the second miracle of walking on water, right after the multiplication of the loaves, also shows He has power over His own body. What comes thirdly after the multiplication of the loaves miracle, which is followed immediately by the walking on water miracle? The bread of life discourse. Where He’s telling His listeners, “This is my body. This is my blood.” I have power over the natural elements themselves, bread and wine, and I have power over my body to make the wine my blood, to make the bread my body. And indeed, just before the bread of life discourse, those two miracles, multiplication of the loaves, walking on water, shows His power over natural elements like bread and water, but also shows power in the second miracle of walking on water, power over His own body. So the sacred author, John, did not by accident just randomly plugging these miracles. These miracles are in sequential order on purpose to show the reality of the mystery.
Adam Wright:
There is so much we could say. I’ll share with you one of my favorites, Father. And you put me on the spot, so I’m going to put you on the spot. In the Eucharistic miracles where the consecrated host takes the appearance or form of flesh and blood before the eyes of the priest, and in many cases, the faithful. Do you know when they’ve analyzed that, what appears to be flesh, what they always find when they do the analysis?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
The same blood type.
Adam Wright:
Same blood type and always myocardial tissue. But it’s always heart tissue. And —
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Right. And it’s inner. I could be wrong about this, but I believe at least on some of the Eucharistic miracles, it’s the inner cardium wall. Which shows something about our God wanting to love us so deeply, internally, like the deep huddle. It’s not just the cardium wall, like outside wall tissue as well, but it’s it’s the inner cardium wall tissue. And I think that’s very powerful.
Adam Wright:
All of these great gifts our Lord gives us to help us foster our devotion and help our belief. And I think of that prayer that we pray that we get from the soldier, “I believe, but help my unbelief.” And how generously our Lord answers that prayer, especially with belief in the Most Holy Eucharist.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
So, Adam, I just want to say to your listeners: do what you can to promote the most Blessed Sacrament, the doctrine, the most Holy Eucharist. The USCCB has a wonderful section at their website, to get resources on the three-year Eucharistic Revival. We have the great Eucharistic Congress coming up in 2024, the middle part of 2024, in Indianapolis. All the information’s there at the USCCB website. Maybe you could put a link with this interview there, and do your part. Even down to receiving the Eucharist reverently at Mass, to receive reverently, to receive prepared, to receive from the fact that you’re dressed well for Mass, you make the proper sign of reverence before you receive. If you receive on the hand that you make a true Eucharistic throne with one complete palm over the other open complete palm, if you receive on the tongue that you do so reverently in the way you put out your tongue.
There is so much here from the way we receive, to the way we promote the doctrine, to the way we live the doctrine. It’s all about body, right? His precious body and blood. What does this say about all the culture of death issues that have to do with the body? Like euthanasia, abortion, unnatural marriage, improper food distribution, especially the third world countries, a nuclear armament. What all these things that threaten, directly or indirectly, the sanctity of and dignity of the human person made in God’s image and likeness who has a body, and the Eucharist is about his body and blood, soul and divinity, our Lord, who took on our own human nature for some 33 years, and three years of that was public. So if we truly live the Eucharistic doctrine, we can’t be but pro-life in the greatest sense of the term.
Adam Wright:
Well, Father, I know you and I could go on and on and on. I want to say that it was last week – well, it was last week. We were talking about the Trinity and you used the term “inexhaustible mystery”. I have a feeling we’re in that same territory. We’re in the same waters. But alas-
Fr. Wade Menezes:
It is, in one sense, an inexhaustible mystery in the reality of the miracle, the miracle, of transubstantiation. It happens because God wants to make it happen and that’s why it happens. And we should be extremely humbled by that reality of that miracle.
Adam Wright:
Well, one day we’ll be living in Kairos, in God’s time, but today, we’re in Chronos. We’re in the time of this world, and that is not an infinite mystery. That is rather finite, but I want to thank you for being with us on Roadmap to Heaven today and especially for our podcast listeners and our video viewers who will see the full interview, hear the full interview. It’s always a joy to really go deep into these things with you. And my favorite part is knowing that it starts with prayer and it ends with prayer. And so Father, I’ll turn it over to you to end our time together in prayer.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Thank you, Adam. May the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit descend upon all of our Roadmap to Heaven listeners and all Covenant Network listeners and remain with each and every one of you this day and always. Saint Joseph Terror of Demons.
Adam Wright:
Pray for us. Well, Father Wade Menezes, it’s been a joy to have you with us as always. And remember friends, you can always listen to Father Wade on Open Line Tuesdays right here on Covenant Network at 2 PM. To find your station, if you’re listening online, you can just go to OurCatholicRadio.org and look up your signal. And listen, you can even stream online as well. Until next time, Father. Have a great week. I look forward to having you with us next week as we talk about the Most Sacred Heart of our Lord.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Thank you, Adam. I look forward to it also. And it’s a great topic to follow the topic of the Eucharist, the heart of our Lord, having just ended talking about the endocardium wall tissue of the Eucharistic miracles. God bless you now.
Adam Wright:
You as well.
Adam Wright:
Once again, we are happy to have with us Father Wade Menezes, from the Fathers of Mercy and host of EWTN’s Open Line Tuesday. It’s been great, Father, to have you joining us for this wonderful succession of liturgical feasts that began with Easter Sunday, followed by the Ascension of our Lord, followed by Pentecost, followed by Trinity Sunday, and now we are getting ready for the solemnity of the Body and Blood of our Lord, Corpus Christi, a wonderful feast in the life of the church. It brings back many fond memories as a young boy serving for the processions in the parish throughout the neighborhood, and then going to processions as a young adult, and and now into middle adulthood, as much as I don’t want to admit it, that’s where we’re at. But it’s good to have you with us coming to us today from Hanceville, the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament. So this is very fitting today, Father.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Yes. I’m here inside the priest retreat house at the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament in Hanceville, Alabama. Just about 45 minutes north of EWTN proper where I’m doing some tapings for both radio and television this week, and it’s always a joy to come back to the shrine, Adam. This is my very, very first priestly assignment. When I was ordained in June of 2000 I was assigned here as the priest in residence to serve the pilgrims and to assist the Franciscan friars down at EWTN who would drive up regularly to also not only assist the pilgrims, but to assist the nuns as well, for their sacramental needs and the pilgrims for their evangelical needs. And so it’s always a joy to come back and the whole shrine is built under the aura of of the Divino Niño, the Christ child, but the official title is the Shrine of The Most Blessed Sacrament. So what a beautiful location here this week to go ahead and be talking about Corpus Christi, the patronal feast day of the shrine, in fact.
Adam Wright:
Now, Father, I imagine like every other feast we’ve been talking about over the past few weeks, the timing of this is not coincidental. Like, oh, isn’t it great we’ve had Father Wade on to talk about this and then that? And, oh, look here happens to be another thing on the calendar. This is all very specifically laid out. I know a few of the details going back to Pope Urban IV about this feast. But what can you tell us? I know you like to prepare for Open Line – I forget what you call it – a setup, basically, to say this is what we’re going to talk about today.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
My springboard, the first ten minutes of the show. Yeah.
Adam Wright:
So in your springboard for Roadmap to Heaven today, in our interview, what would you tell us about Corpus Christi?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Well, you know, it’s celebrated on the Octave Day of Trinity Sunday. Now, traditionally, it’s held on the Thursday after Trinity Sunday, which is the Octave Day of Pentecost, as we talked about last week when we talked about Trinity Sunday. But very few dioceses just keep it on the Thursday now, following the Second Vatican Council’s revamping of the universal calendar. And so the church permits either celebrating it on the traditional day of the Thursday following Trinity Sunday. Thursday, the weekday itself, per se, is traditionally a day set aside, in honor of The Most Blessed Sacrament, especially during ordinary time and ferial days. Ferial days are days that don’t have saints attached to them, either as obligatory memorials or even optional memorials. So you can celebrate the Votive Mass, for example, The Most Blessed Sacrament on a Thursday and on other days as well, but Thursday has a special marked reality about it for the Blessed Sacrament because the last supper took place on the the night of the arrest, which was holy Thursday night, the night before Good Friday when our Lord died for us.
So some diocese do also still celebrate Corpus Christi on the Thursday following Holy Trinity, but most diocese in the US celebrate it on the Sunday after Trinity Sunday. So it’s another octave we’re celebrating now, right? I say specifically a little octave because we are technically in ordinary time now. It’s not a major octave when we’re in a major liturgical season like Christmas or Easter, the big Christmas octave is December 25th, Christmas day, to January 1st. The Great Solemnity of Mary Mother of God, which also kicks off the new secular New Year’s right, New Year’s day. And then Easter being another major season, we have Easter Sunday itself, and its octave day is Divine Mercy Sunday or the second Sunday of Easter. Well, we’re technically in ordinary time now with Holy Trinity this past Sunday, Holy Trinity Sunday, and now Corpus Christi Sunday, this coming Sunday. But it’s still an octave and we celebrate it. And it follows from the celebration of the Trinity because we’re now reminded from last Sunday, Trinity Sunday, that we’re thanking the triune Godhead who gave us the paschal mystery and Pentecost. The paschal mystery being the passion, death, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord into Heaven, and fifthly, Pentecost itself. That’s why the octave day after Pentecost, we celebrate Trinity Sunday to precisely thank the triune Godhead who gave us the four-event event of the paschal mystery and Pentecost Sunday.
And now a week after honoring that triune Godhead, we recall the establishment of the reality of our Lord’s precious source and summit sacrament, His body and blood given to us, until the end of time, to feed us and to nourish us. One of the three sacraments of initiation, the most holy Eucharist, along with baptism and confirmation. And we harken now to the reality that the paschal mystery ushered in the reality of the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit leads us from Pentecost forward, the so called birthday of the church, to live, and share, and evangelize this great sacrament with others. We’re in the midst of this three-year Eucharistic Revival, and that’s something that cannot be lost sight of either. So this is kind of the unfurling of Lent, into the sacred Triduum, the passion and death of our Lord, then Easter Sunday, the resurrection, then ascension 40 days after, then Pentecost 10 days after that, then celebrating the triune Godhead on Trinity Sunday, the eighth day after Pentecost. The triune Godhead that made it all possible. Then now we’re going into Corpus Christi to remind us of the great gift of the Eucharist. And so, there’s an unfurling that’s very reasonable, and very theological, and very scriptural, too because all these events happen in this order as well. But with the Eucharist now, we’re harkening that the gift is still with us, the gift that was ushered in on Holy Thursday night.
Adam Wright:
One of my favorite stories that’s been handed down in the church is that when this feast was instituted by Pope Urban IV that he commissioned both Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Bonaventure to compose hymns and other texts for the office for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi, and that upon hearing Aquinas’s texts and hymns, Saint Bonaventure ripped up his manuscripts and said, “Don’t even bother with mine. These are so beautiful and so wonderful, we have to use these.” There’s a lot of great theology we get in the wonderful hymn, “Adoro Te Devote” by Saint Thomas Aquinas. We sing it every time we go to Benediction, the “Tantum Ergo”, some beautiful beautiful hymns that we have for this feast. What else do we want to know about?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Well, we know the great feast honors the precious body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. And as you mentioned earlier, it was established and extended to the universal church by Pope Urban IV, who reigned from 1261 to 1264. This great solemnity really finds its origins, as far as it being established, in the controversies generated by Berengarius of Tours, who died in 1088, who made the presence of Christ and the eucharist more symbolic rather than real. And later too, the feast was promoted by the fully church approved visions of the servant of God Blessed Juliana of Mount Cornillon in Belgium, an Augustinian nun who understood from them that God wanted a feast established to honor the Blessed Sacrament. Now although these events happened in the 11th and 12th century, of course, the doctrine was something the church has always held since apostolic times. The church never defines a doctrine until and unless it’s challenged by heretics, and it was in the 11th and 12th centuries. So that’s why Pope Urban saw need to define clearly the wording of the doctrine and how we believe in the most Blessed Sacrament, and extend a universal feast in honor of it on the church’s universal calendar.
So again, the belief of Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist is upheld by Sacred Scripture, Tradition of the Magisterium, and I’ll get to those points in a moment. This is a doctrine, Adam, that sets Catholic Christians apart from their other Christian brothers and sisters, our Protestant brothers and sisters. Discussion of this doctrine would be incomplete without the mentioning of the term transubstantiation. Transubstantiation refers to the change of substance, trans (change), substantia (substance), the change of substance of bread and wine into fully, really, and substantially, the body blood solemnity of our Lord Jesus Christ to the words of consecration at mass. Although this fundamental doctrine of the Catholic Church has been held by the faithful since apostolic times, the term transubstantiation was officially adopted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, precisely to describe the Eucharist mystery. This was reinforced by the Council of Trent, which closed in 1563 and, excuse me, 1565, and which spoke of a “wonderful and singular conversion”. It spoke of a wonderful and singular conversion of the Eucharistic elements. Pope Paul VI, too, in his 1965 encyclical on the Holy Eucharist Mysterium Fidei emphatically states, Adam, that the sacramental presence of Christ in the Eucharist surpasses the law of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind. Only a validly ordained priest can bring into existence the Most Holy Eucharist, and because of the reality of transubstantiation referenced to the Eucharist species as merely bread and wine following the words of consecration, are incorrect. They’re wrong. It’s more properly called, at that point, after the words of consecration, the body and blood of Christ. That cannot be forgotten of either.
We have many, many harkenings of the Old Testament, to the Eucharist that would be established by Christ in the New Testament. Again, Christ says, “I did not come to abolish the old law, but to bring it to fulfillment.” And it’s interesting that both in the Greek and the Hebrew language, fulfillment means “to render perfect”. To render the thing in question perfect. And once something is perfect, there’s no future changes to it, precisely because it’s now perfect. So again, Christ says, “I did not come to abolish the old law, but to bring it to fulfillment.” Hebrew and Greek tell us that fulfillment means to render perfect the thing in question, the thing that’s being talked about. Right? So here are some Old Testament harkenings, or what we call types or foreshadowings of the Eucharist that would be established by Christ in the upper room on the night of the arrest, to give us this most August sacrament, this most blessed sacrament, the source and summit of the entire Christian life as Vatican II teaches.
Listen to this. Melchizedek, the king and priest of Salem, he was a foreshadowing of the Eucharist priesthood. He was the first one to offer bread and wine, and it was very mysterious that he did. He didn’t slaughter the lambs. He offered bread and wine. Okay? Now the Jewish Passover meal involving the paschal lamb, was a prefigurement of the Eucharistic sacrifice who would come with Jesus himself as the lamb of God. Right? How about the manna in the desert that rained down for 40 years on the Israelites following their escape from Egyptian slavery? That mysterious bread-like substance that fed them for those 40 years. How about the old temple? The old temple was a prefigurement of the Eucharist of God dwelling among His people in their midst. It’s interesting that the word “tent” in Latin is “tabernaculum” which is also where we get the English word “tabernacle” from, and we reserve the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle throughout the week until the next Sunday’s Mass, for adoration purposes, secondarily, and primarily to have reserved, consecrated hosts to take to the sick and the homebound. This is why I love the three trope Angelus Prayer. The third trope before the third Hail Mary is: “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us” because He’s still dwelling among us even following His ascension into Heaven with His real true and abiding presence in the most Blessed Sacrament. But there’s more here. The original translation could be rendered thus: “And the word became flesh and He pitched His tent among us.” Tabernaculum, the Tabernacle, that houses the Blessed Sacrament, the most Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.
So this is very powerful stuff. How about Elijah with the hearth cakes? That was a prefigurement of the Eucharist’s food for the journey as it were. Think of Holy Viaticum at the end of one’s life, which is one of the five elements to receive in the so called last rites. Holy Viaticum, one’s final holy communion. If they’re able to receive it, they may not be depending on how they’re dying. For example, if they’re dying soon after a horrendous car accident and they’re now in ICU with all kinds of apparatus on them, they’re not able to receive Viaticum. But the fact is, Viaticum remains, if the person’s able, it remains one of the five elements to receive the last rites. The last rites constitute the five elements. So, confession, if the person feels the need to go. The anointing of the sick. Holy Viaticum. The prayers of commendation of the dying prayed over the person, which includes the litany of saints. And fifthly, and lastly, the apostolic pardon granted to the person as well. So Holy Viaticum is like food for the journey that we read about with Elijah and the hearth cakes in 1 Kings 19. How about Bethlehem? Adam, I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but you know what Bethlehem means in Hebrew?
Adam Wright:
I don’t remember Bethlehem, but I remember manger. So put me on the spot here, but I’m going to fail the first part of this test.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
It simply means house of bread. House of bread. Our Lord was born in a town named house of bread. I mean, do we need any more proof than that? Right? And our lady laid him in a manger, the “manducare” – to eat, to gnaw, to chew on. It’s much more graphic in the Latin. It means literally to gnaw on g n a w. She placed him in an eating trough. Our lady placed her baby boy, the God man incarnate in an eating trough. So all these are – Old Testament and New Testament now, I’m getting into the New Testament ones – foreshadowings of the Eucharist that would come to be established by our Lord in the upper room.
How about the wedding feast at Cana where we witness water change into the best of wine? And later at the last supper, wine changed into the blood of Christ. The multiplication of the loaves is the only miracle of our Lord to appear in all four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No other miracle of Jesus appears in all four gospels. Only that one does: the multiplication of the loaves miracle. The bread of life discourse in John chapter six. The last supper itself, wherein the eucharistic promises are fulfilled with the actual institution of the Holy Eucharist, the fifth luminous mystery of the Rosary. Right? How about the road to Emmaus when Jesus is recognized by the two disciples once they enter the home to have supper? They recognize Him in the what?
Adam Wright:
In the breaking of the bread.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
And then He vanishes from their sight. Exactly. Okay, demonstrating one of the four characteristics of the glorified risen state, which we’ve talked about in the past. Yeah, so the road to Emmaus, think of the fractio at Mass, the breaking of the bread at the Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God, that’s the breaking of bread. I think of the road to Emmaus scene every time the Agnus Dei beautifully takes place at Mass. They recognized Him in the breaking of the bread, at the Agnus Dei while it’s being chanted in English or Latin, I’m there breaking it and I’m recognizing Him in the breaking of the bread. You know, how awesome is that? Then the marriage supper of the lamb, right? The book of Revelation chapters 19 through 21, wherein we see now that the Eucharist is the pledge of eternal glory where we all hope to one day be seated down with the supper of the lamb Himself for all eternity. So the great feast of Corpus Christi, and I can’t stress enough, Adam, we’re in the midst of the three-year Eucharistic Revival. Okay? We need to promote this doctrine, get this doctrine out, and share it with Catholics and non-Catholics and the like. I mentioned earlier the 1965 encyclical by Pope Saint Paul VI titled “Mysterium Fidei” that’s Latin for “the mystery of faith”. The mystery of faith. Now, let’s think of the Mass now. When the priest does the two consecrations, the bread first into the body of our Lord, and then secondly, the wine into His precious blood. After each consecration, after the words of institution, or the words of consecration, are set for each species, he goes down and genuflects. Right? Well, when he goes down for his genuflection following the consecration of the precious blood, the wine into the precious blood, he comes up from that second genuflection, what are the first words out of the precelebrant’s mouth to the congregation?
Adam Wright:
Well, in my Latin English missal, I’ll tell you in the Latin, it’s “mysterium fidei”, but what we most commonly hear in English: “the mystery of faith”.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
The mystery of faith, the Mysterium Fidei. This is it. In other words, right after the two consecrations, the mystery of faith, here it is now. Both species on the altar. Do we believe it, or do we not believe it? Okay. This is powerful. So this is what Paul VI titled that encyclical at the closing year of the Second Vatican Council, Mysterium Fidei, the mystery of faith. And you know what that encyclical has, Adam? It has about 100 quotes, 100 to 150 quotes or so, from church fathers of the first seven through eight centuries, defending the doctrine of the most Holy Eucharist, and I want to share a few of those right now if I can. Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this, “We have been instructed in these matters and are now filled with an unshakable faith, that that which seems to be bread is no longer bread, though it tastes like it, but it is now the body of Christ. And that that which seems to be wine is no longer wine, though it tastes as such, but it is now the blood of Christ. Draw inner strength by receiving this bread as true spiritual food, and your soul will rejoice abundantly.” Because the accidents, or characteristics, (philosophical terms when talking about this sacrament) the accidents or characteristics do stay the same. Still looks like bread and wine, still tastes like bread and wine, still touches like bread and wine, if I was to touch either species. Still smells like bread and wine, but faith comes from hearing. Right? We’re told in the New Testament. What do I hear at the Mass? I hear the words of consecration. “This is my body. This is my blood.” Our Lord’s own words from the Last Supper. Faith comes from hearing. So the accidents and characteristics stay the same. This is why it’s wonderful, what Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Eucharistic hymn “Tantum Ergo”. He says what our senses (meaning the five senses: sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing) what our senses fail to fathom, following the consecration because the accidents and characteristics stay the same. What the senses fail to fathom, let us grasp through faith’s consent, and faith comes through hearing. And I hear the words of consecration at Mass. Okay?.
Adam Wright:
I love that one – oh, I’m sorry, Father. I love that lyric in the Tantum Ergo, that faith will tell us Christ is present when our human senses fail.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
That’s the other translation of the same exact line. I’m glad you mentioned that. That’s the same exact line but a different English translation. Cyril continues, Cyril of Alexandria, “Christ said, indicating the bread and wine, ‘This is my body and this is my blood’ in order that you might not judge what you see to be a mere figure of His body and blood. Indeed, the offerings by the hidden power of God Almighty are changed into Christ’s body and blood. And by receiving these, we come to share in the lifegiving and sanctifying efficacy of Jesus Christ.” How beautiful is that? Right? Saint John Chrysostom. I love this because John Chrysostom sounds kind of in your face here. Which is a good thing because he’s being apologetically truthful and he’s trying to convey the point. Listen to this. He says, “It is not the power of that man up there [meaning the priest] It is not the power of that man up there which makes what is put before us the body and blood of Christ. But rather the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing up there in the place of Christ says these words of institution, but their power and grace are from God. ‘This is my body’ that priest says, and these words transform what lies before him.” Isn’t that great? I mean, another great bumper sticker if it wasn’t so long. Right?
Adam Wright:
Right. We don’t need to mince words here. We need to be very clear and very direct about who we are talking about. You know, that’s one of the things, this is nowhere near as good as the saints you quoted, Father, but here at Covenant Network, we like to say that before consecration, we talk about it. After consecration, we talk about who.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Yeah. It versus who. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Then from the Jerusalem catecheses, which is attributed to Saint Cyril of Jerusalem. I just quoted Cyril of Alexandria and John Chrysostom. So this is a different Cyril. This is Cyril of Jerusalem who gave us his wonderful Jerusalem catecheses from the early fourth century, that many parts of it are still used at the Easter vigil for the three sacraments of initiation for catechumens. How awesome is that, that the current Roman ritual for the Easter vigil’s initiation of those three sacraments of new catechumens coming into the church, many elements of that ritual comes from the Jerusalem catecheses? How beautiful is that? He says this, “Since Christ himself has declared the bread to be His body, who can have any further doubt? And since He Himself has said quite categorically, ‘This is my blood’ who would dare to question it and say that it is not His blood? Do not then regard the eucharistic elements as ordinary bread and wine. For they are, in fact, the body and blood of the Lord, as He Himself has declared. Whatever your sentences may tell you, be strong in faith. You have been taught and you are firmly convinced that what looks and tastes like bread and wine is no longer bread and wine, but truly the body and blood of Christ.” Again, very clear, very to the point. I love it. I love it. You know, there were two great quotes on the trinity that I love their directness and their curtness, and no room for argumentation, the full apologetics of the faith was there. To recall from our episode a week ago on the most Holy Trinity, the first one was from Saint Turibius of Montenegro. He says, talking about the trinity, “God is the infinite perfect being who is the most Holy Trinity.” I mean, everything’s just right there. And I think of that with these quotes on the Eucharist from these church fathers. The other one on the trinity was from Saint Columban, the famous seventh-century abbot. He says, “Who then is God? I shall tell you who is God. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God. Therefore, do not look for any other answers concerning God.” It’s like everything’s right there, you know? And just great defense of the faith. Great defense of the faith.
Adam Wright:
It really is. It takes me back to my days when I was in high school youth group, and we were getting a wonderful catechesis on our Lord’s true presence in the Most Holy Eucharist. And the priest said, “Listen, bread does not have free will. Wine does not have free will. So when our Lord says, ‘This is my body’ it’s not as if the bread can disobey. It has to obey. It has to give up itself and become our Lord.” I love this, Father, because so often I fear that we don’t speak clearly enough about the Eucharist, and it’s led to somewhat of a watered down faith or understanding. Then we sing things that talk about a meal, and talk about how wonderful bread is, and how wonderful wine is, and we negate the true presence of our Lord.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Right. Well, you know, the church does officially teach it as both sacrifice and banquet. And we especially see the banquet imagery regarding the Eucharist in the book of Revelation. This is why Dr. Scott Hahn says a great element of his conversion process from Presbyterianism was when it dawned on him that the Mass, the literal Catholic Mass, is the book of Revelation brought into our midst. You know, given the four senses of scripture, the literal and the spiritual. The spiritual has the three subsets: the moral, allegorical, and anagogical. Right? So there’s four senses of scripture from two parent categories. The two parent categories again are the literal, (meaning taking the words at face value, they mean what they say, the actual words) but then there’s the spiritual parent category. The two parent categories of scripture: literal and spiritual. Well, the spiritual, the second one, has three subsets. Again, the moral, allegorical, and anagogical. And it’s in those senses, especially the allegorical and anagogical that Scott Hahn saw the Mass being enacted of the literal book of Revelation, or the book of Revelation being enacted in the Mass, more appropriately said. This was very profound for him, a very profound element of his conversion, and he witnesses about it.
But going back to what you just said about when you were growing up in high school and taking your faith courses, it’s not as if the bread can disobey. It can’t. Or the wine can disobey, it can’t. It’s the words of God commanding it. Right? Listen to this. This is why – I’ve already said that the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves is the only miracle that appears in all four gospels, Matthew Mark, Luke and John. Now listen to this: John chapter six, which gives us the bread of life discourse. Okay? Are we ready for this? This is pretty awesome. At the very beginning of John chapter 6, because the bread of life discourse, I believe it starts with 50 and right around the late 40s or the early 50s of verse numbers. I think it’s verse 50, but listen to this. At the very beginning of John chapter six, we have the multiplication of the loaves, which begins John chapter six. And then right after the multiplication of the loaves is the miracle of Jesus walking on water. These two miracles, the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves at the beginning of John chapter six, immediately followed by Jesus walking on water, shows that He has power over natural elements like wheat and bread, like water. Natural elements, He has power over. However, the second miracle of walking on water, right after the multiplication of the loaves, also shows He has power over His own body. What comes thirdly after the multiplication of the loaves miracle, which is followed immediately by the walking on water miracle? The bread of life discourse. Where He’s telling His listeners, “This is my body. This is my blood.” I have power over the natural elements themselves, bread and wine, and I have power over my body to make the wine my blood, to make the bread my body. And indeed, just before the bread of life discourse, those two miracles, multiplication of the loaves, walking on water, shows His power over natural elements like bread and water, but also shows power in the second miracle of walking on water, power over His own body. So the sacred author, John, did not by accident just randomly plugging these miracles. These miracles are in sequential order on purpose to show the reality of the mystery.
Adam Wright:
There is so much we could say. I’ll share with you one of my favorites, Father. And you put me on the spot, so I’m going to put you on the spot. In the Eucharistic miracles where the consecrated host takes the appearance or form of flesh and blood before the eyes of the priest, and in many cases, the faithful. Do you know when they’ve analyzed that, what appears to be flesh, what they always find when they do the analysis?
Fr. Wade Menezes:
The same blood type.
Adam Wright:
Same blood type and always myocardial tissue. But it’s always heart tissue. And —
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Right. And it’s inner. I could be wrong about this, but I believe at least on some of the Eucharistic miracles, it’s the inner cardium wall. Which shows something about our God wanting to love us so deeply, internally, like the deep huddle. It’s not just the cardium wall, like outside wall tissue as well, but it’s it’s the inner cardium wall tissue. And I think that’s very powerful.
Adam Wright:
All of these great gifts our Lord gives us to help us foster our devotion and help our belief. And I think of that prayer that we pray that we get from the soldier, “I believe, but help my unbelief.” And how generously our Lord answers that prayer, especially with belief in the Most Holy Eucharist.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
So, Adam, I just want to say to your listeners: do what you can to promote the most Blessed Sacrament, the doctrine, the most Holy Eucharist. The USCCB has a wonderful section at their website, to get resources on the three-year Eucharistic Revival. We have the great Eucharistic Congress coming up in 2024, the middle part of 2024, in Indianapolis. All the information’s there at the USCCB website. Maybe you could put a link with this interview there, and do your part. Even down to receiving the Eucharist reverently at Mass, to receive reverently, to receive prepared, to receive from the fact that you’re dressed well for Mass, you make the proper sign of reverence before you receive. If you receive on the hand that you make a true Eucharistic throne with one complete palm over the other open complete palm, if you receive on the tongue that you do so reverently in the way you put out your tongue.
There is so much here from the way we receive, to the way we promote the doctrine, to the way we live the doctrine. It’s all about body, right? His precious body and blood. What does this say about all the culture of death issues that have to do with the body? Like euthanasia, abortion, unnatural marriage, improper food distribution, especially the third world countries, a nuclear armament. What all these things that threaten, directly or indirectly, the sanctity of and dignity of the human person made in God’s image and likeness who has a body, and the Eucharist is about his body and blood, soul and divinity, our Lord, who took on our own human nature for some 33 years, and three years of that was public. So if we truly live the Eucharistic doctrine, we can’t be but pro-life in the greatest sense of the term.
Adam Wright:
Well, Father, I know you and I could go on and on and on. I want to say that it was last week – well, it was last week. We were talking about the Trinity and you used the term “inexhaustible mystery”. I have a feeling we’re in that same territory. We’re in the same waters. But alas-
Fr. Wade Menezes:
It is, in one sense, an inexhaustible mystery in the reality of the miracle, the miracle, of transubstantiation. It happens because God wants to make it happen and that’s why it happens. And we should be extremely humbled by that reality of that miracle.
Adam Wright:
Well, one day we’ll be living in Kairos, in God’s time, but today, we’re in Chronos. We’re in the time of this world, and that is not an infinite mystery. That is rather finite, but I want to thank you for being with us on Roadmap to Heaven today and especially for our podcast listeners and our video viewers who will see the full interview, hear the full interview. It’s always a joy to really go deep into these things with you. And my favorite part is knowing that it starts with prayer and it ends with prayer. And so Father, I’ll turn it over to you to end our time together in prayer.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Thank you, Adam. May the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit descend upon all of our Roadmap to Heaven listeners and all Covenant Network listeners and remain with each and every one of you this day and always. Saint Joseph Terror of Demons.
Adam Wright:
Pray for us. Well, Father Wade Menezes, it’s been a joy to have you with us as always. And remember friends, you can always listen to Father Wade on Open Line Tuesdays right here on Covenant Network at 2 PM. To find your station, if you’re listening online, you can just go to OurCatholicRadio.org and look up your signal. And listen, you can even stream online as well. Until next time, Father. Have a great week. I look forward to having you with us next week as we talk about the Most Sacred Heart of our Lord.
Fr. Wade Menezes:
Thank you, Adam. I look forward to it also. And it’s a great topic to follow the topic of the Eucharist, the heart of our Lord, having just ended talking about the endocardium wall tissue of the Eucharistic miracles. God bless you now.
Adam Wright:
You as well.
In this episode of Roadmap to Heaven, host Adam Wright is joined by guest Father Wade Menezes to discuss the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The celebration of Corpus Christi is explored, and the importance of receiving the Eucharist reverently at Mass is highlighted.
Father Menezes emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist and calls for its promotion and sharing with both Catholics and non-Catholics. He references a 1965 encyclical by Pope St. Paul VI entitled “Mysterium Fidei,” which delves into the mystery of faith and reaffirms the doctrine of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist.
Father Menezes discusses the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves, which is the only miracle of Jesus found in all four gospels. He also mentions the road to Emmaus, where Jesus was recognized by his disciples in the breaking of the bread. He highlights that the Eucharist is a pledge of eternal glory and is connected to the marriage supper of the Lamb mentioned in the Book of Revelation.
Father Menezes also explains that transubstantiation is the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ during the Mass. He emphasizes that this sacramental presence in the Eucharist is considered the greatest miracle, surpassing the laws of nature.
The episode concludes by underscoring the need for clear teaching on the Eucharist and the importance of understanding its true presence. Overall, this episode of Roadmap to Heaven explores how important concepts like the Eucharist and transubstantiation are great mysteries of faith.
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